that is tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. tonight, big news in donald trump's criminal cases. jack smith and fani willis suffer setbacks as stormy daniels resumes her testimony tomorrow than marjorie taylor greene gets booed on the house floor. former republican congressman is here on the chaos in his party. leaving. once again, i am stephanie ruhle. we are now 181 days away from the election. tomorrow, stormy daniels will be back on the witness stand to face more cross-examination from trumps defense attorneys. today was an off day for the trial and trump spent it in florida before flying back tonight and while the case in new york was quiet, there was

plenty of news in trumps other criminal cases. in georgia, an appeals court has granted trumps request to now consider disqualifying the a fani willis from his election interference case. this decision makes it even less likely that the case goes to trial before the election. this comes one day after special counsel jack smith suffered a setback in the classified documents case down in florida. judge aileen cannon indefinitely delayed that trial, and today there was a sealed hearing about some of the details in that case. on top of all of that, we could get more decisions from the supreme court tomorrow as we wait for their ruling on donald trump's residential immunity claim. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel this evening. mark mckinnon, former adviser to george w bush and former u.s.

attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. molly, trumps attorneys will have had 36 hours to pull their next strategy together for stormy daniels on the stand tomorrow. what are you looking for? >> the female defense lawyer is the best lawyer trump has but she has really just been trotted out for this stormy daniels cross, so i think it will be really interesting to see. i read some reporting from people who work in the courthouse that said perhaps the jury did not love her beating up on the witness, and i have read other reporting that there have been other cases for their -- she has been hard on female witnesses. i'm not sure that place in the way she is hoping it will. again, this is a jury case so you have a jury to appeal to. >> mark, how hard do you think trumps team is going to go

after stormy daniels, especially when you think about his demands on his attorneys and all the gory details she went into yesterday? >> i think they're going to be pretty aggressive. i think that is what trump wants and what he expects and i think they feel there is enough credibility holes in the testimony to take it apart. particularly when you have the judge himself questioning whether or not some of her testimony should've been included which throws up flares for everybody about whether it could be appealed. >> to that point, we heard a lot of graphic details from stormy daniels. trump loyalists, we know they are going to side with him no matter what but what about independence, the gettable voters out there. do those dirty details hurt trump or maybe even the reverse? >> i don't think at the end of the day, the dirty details matter at all. everyone is familiar with what likely happened the only thing that would be a surprise if he paid her not to have . -- 1028.

at the end of the day, does any of this legal stuff matter in the election? i think in an election that could be decided by 10 or 20,000 votes in three states we do know matter what people say this is the weakest case, at the end of the day there could be a defense out there. i don't like voting for somebody who's found guilty of any crime, no matter what it is and that could be enough. >> but you are also trying to convince evangelicals that they should stick with this guy. >> they've already figured out why and how they can reconcile with trump and they ain't leaving. joyce, if you are the prosecution, what are you hoping for and what happens with this cross-examination? what are you hoping stormie does? >> well, you're hoping that she

will actually be even better on cross-examination than she was and direct. that is a phenomenon that you see sometimes with a witness who is being pushed heavily on cross-examination and sometimes you know, they will simply grow a spine and dig in and become very insistent. you will recall , in opening statements, trumps lawyers said that what stormy daniels would testify to was a lie, and now the burden is on them to deliver on that promise and if she holds up well on cross-examination, it really makes inroads into their credibility. >> i feel like what is left for her to tell us, but the prosecution has made it clear they are going to redirect. what else do they want to get from her? >> well, they will cleanup anything that happens in cross- examination. if she falters, if she gets cut off from explaining something, they will be able to redirect her attention to make sure that

the jury is focused on the evidentiary points that they need them to be focused on. stormy daniels' testimony is interesting, i think in the sense that people view this is a case that in addition to having legal consequence also has political consequence, but the prosecution needs to prove the elements of the case and a big one is to convince the jury that donald trump was a part of the scheme, and the fact that stormy daniels' story is something that would've been so damaging to him how to come out ahead of the election, that is an important thing for the jury to understand. >> joyce, you kind of lit a candle of hope today for a lot of people who were feeling hopeless and he wrote that after 25 years as a federal prosecutor, you have faith in the jury system no matter what happens. why? >> look, you know, that is not to say that there are not sometimes juries that go astray, but by and large, 12

americans possessed of common sense and good attention spans will reach the right result in a courtroom, and what happens is we are observers. we are able to read the transcript in this case. sometimes we are able to watch trials on tv but the jury is there for every minute of the proceedings. they hear the witnesses. they take instruction from the judge on the law. they can evaluate the witness' demeanor on a first-hand basis and they take their job very seriously. juries are not cavalier about the responsibility. in this case, i expect that they are paying close attention, that they will deliberate carefully and that they will reach a verdict based on the evidence and that if prosecutors do their job, they will convict. >> i know i'm boring you with questions returned to georgia with us for a minute. joyce, an appeals court there now might disqualify fani willis. if she would have recused herself months ago, would we be in trial territory at this point? >> it's tough to say.

there are so many variables here but the reality is that with the court of appeals in georgia will do is they will decide whether or not the trial judge, judge mcafee got it right. they are reviewing his decision. they will accord him broad discretion. i think it's unlikely that they will reverse him, so the real issue here is the amount of time it will take. it will probably take months and then of course, whichever party loses in the court of appeals will almost certainly take an appeal to the georgia supreme court, so it is less the ultimate outcome of this case and whether or not what fani willis did was correct to the beginning. this was always going to go on this appellate path once the issue arose and it is unfortunate. you know, i think we all have views about why we got here but the reality is, this case is now delayed severely.

>> in florida delayed indefinitely, now georgia. it has been a rough few days for jack smith in fani willis. mark, do you think we are going to see any progress here before the election, and after the election, do you think these trials are ever going to happen? >> well, i don't know and the key question is will anything happen before the election and i think no. the legal calvary is not coming to the rescue of joe biden, which i think is good. i think voters should focus on the election. the way to be donald trump is not the court, ultimately, but at the ballot box. that's the way to humiliate him, take away his power, take away his standing with motors and do it legally and straightforward at the ballot box. >> look, these are the guardrails not holding. this is a guy who spent hundred million dollars according to the new york times, to put these cases. he has hired the best lawyers. i think we are still going to see this criminal case, the new

york case but i don't know if we will see any other cases. >> did he hire the best lawyers? is aileen cannon in his pocket or did he get wildly lucky in georgia? >> she is not the best lawyer but she is a pretty good lawyer. he has had some pretty good lawyers and also had millions and millions and millions of dollars and so he has managed to punt a lot of the stuff. i think he also got lucky in the supreme court, i mean you listen to those two justices, thomas and alito, they have really done for him what few thought they would. >> then let's talk politics, mark. we now have two democratic senators who are now publicly going after aileen cannon and i completely get where they feel that way, but is it a gift to trump to politicians to weigh in because he loves to argue that all of these cases are rigged. it's all about politics. it is democrats pushing the doj? >> yeah, the more for him, the

better. who would've thought on paper a year ago that a nominee for a major party would be indicted four times in 91 counts and be stronger after all of that than he was before? and so, for trump particularly, the more partisan it gets and the more partisan the attacks are on the judges, it makes the point. they are coming for you if they've got a go through me and it's just a partisan attack. >> how about tomorrow when trump goes back to court? rick scott of florida is going to be by his side, the latest contestant in the vp sweepstakes. what do you think about this? >> well, i mean everybody's trying to shine his shoes every day. [ inaudible ] >> not his wife, his firstborn daughter, his firstborn sons. mike pence, nikki haley.

>> everybody wants to be in the oval office next to donald trump. >> before we go, molly, i want to ask about your latest vanity fair piece because in it, you write that even though it feels like this election has been going on forever, americans have to keep paying attention. how do you convince people to do that? >> part of it is just not avoiding the news. i'm here to tell you that it is good to stay informed. i'm here on the cable channel to tell you to watch the 11th hour but i also think you know, this is not a fait accompli. we have six months to go. anything could happen, and the truth is, none of us know and if anything, there is more possibility than ever because polls have been very off, so it really is the time for all of us to just be really committed to remember that the issue is the stakes. >> joyce, irrelevant of where

you are in the political spectrum, does it surprise you that more americans are not glued to the tv every twist and turn in this trump trial? most likely because it is not televised, but this is a former resident of the united states as a criminal defendant. i mean, we were watching the johnny depp amber heard trial day in and day out 24/7. >> yes, i think sometimes people like us who do pay attention, we forget that most of the people in this country have lives to live. they have jobs to go to. they have kids and parents to care for. they have long commutes. they're busy. they're tired at the end of the day and so they are reliance on analysts and news reporters to give them snippets of the trial. i think a big disservice is done to the country when cases like this are not acceptable -- accessible on television.

we all know we are reading this on the record and that's no substitute for watching it happen but i think molly makes this important point about how people need to stay plugged in on the news. i think it is a shared responsibility between citizens and the media to make sure people do not underestimate this moment and its importance, and most importantly, perhaps, that people understand who donald trump is. love him, hate him, vote for him, not vote for him, people are entitled to the fact and they should have him before the election. >> mark, your wife came with you to the studio tonight and i would just want to give you the opportunity to really sound smart and have the lost word. >> we have 180 days until the election and the smartest guy, james carville, said the era of uncertainty is over. that means i didn't see that one coming. something is going to happen that we couldn't have predicted. this thing is a jump ball and anything could happen.

>> thank you all. before we got a break, you know what time it is. it is time for our dj t tracker. donald trump's media stock finished the day up more than 3% it just under $50 a share. just get your head around that. this is a company that physically does nothing. no technology or advancements. it is just donald trump crazy posting all day long so you have to think about it when you wonder who once the stock and why? what did he do today? he was not on the campaign trail. instead, he spent the evening with some very special customers and one of his other ventures. tonight, he hosted a dinner at mar-a-lago for trump nft trading card enthusiasts. the name for the newest round of digital cards, the mug shot addition. the we were not there, i have a sinking feeling he was pumping up his media stock to all those

potential buyers who want a piece of dj t. we are going to keep watching this media stock and make sure you know what is going on every day because i have a sinking feeling, those big buyers, what they really are is big trump donors. when we come back, marjorie taylor greene forces a vote to oust speaker johnson and her failed attempt was big. former congressman ken buck is here on the chaos in his party. later, do you remember donald trump's golden shovel moment? he had big plans for a massive tech factory in wisconsin. years later, it still sits empty. what his political rival plans to do with that land instead, the 11th hour just getting underway on a wednesday night. g underway on a wednesday night.

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this is the unit party for the american people watching. >> well, she sure did her best but tonight, marjorie taylor greene's motion to remove house speaker johnson failed in a big way. now, the chaos in the republican-led congress is far from over and many lawmakers are leaving because of it, like my next guest, former gop congressman ken buck of colorado. he stepped down in march after saying he was not willing to lie on behalf of his party. congressman buck, thank you for joining me. i need someone to explain what is going on in congress and i'm pretty sure you know the answer. what is your reaction tonight to that failed to? >> it's a huge victory for speaker johnson. i think both republicans and democrats recognize that he is doing a good job in a very

difficult circumstance. it also was a big loss for marjorie taylor greene. she represents a small section of republicans that are marginalized now even further and i think the long-term impact of this is that speaker johnson will be able to continue to put together a broad coalition of republicans and democrats to pass important legislation. >> she and others use this term, unity party, like it's an insult, like it's a negative but isn't that what the american people are looking for? unity partisanship? >> i agree with you. bipartisanship a few years ago was a good thing when people can work across the aisle and there was common ground it was a good thing. what marjorie taylor greene is trying to do is send a message to the american people that the institutions are corrupt, that the institutions are against you, the hard-working american. i think that fails and it should fail because the

institutions are made up of a lot of really good, hard- working people who are trying the very best under difficult circumstances, and are very polarizing circumstances to get good things done. >> they sure are. you said not that long ago that dysfunction was the reason you voted to oust speaker kevin mccarthy back in october, it didn't removing him just create more dysfunction? think about the house paralysis during those weeks with the shutdown looming, israel and ukraine begging for aid, trying to scramble to get mike johnson confirmed? >> first of all, there was not an aid package for israel or ukraine was in the house at that point. the administration was still working but it together and yes, there was a period of time where we had to struggle to make sure we got a speaker. we got a great speaker and mike johnson and a lot of good work has happened since then. the problem i think kevin faced was he made a lot of promises about prioritizing spending and

reducing spending and he did not deliver on those promises. he did not have the democrats bail him out because one, he went back on the spending deal he agreed to with president biden and two, he removed certain members of the democratic party from committees, and did not get their support. i think mike johnson has done a better job of bringing the whole congress together and i think it shows in today's vote. >> do you worry, though, that he will not certify the election of president biden wins? you voted to certify the election. mike johnson did not last time around, and donald trump has said as recently as last week, he won't accept the election results if he doesn't like them. are you worried about what mike johnson will do? he has a lot more power now. >> mike johnson was not the speaker last time. he is the speaker this time and

he understands that burden and he understands that responsibility and he understands history. that is why he felt so strongly about putting the ukraine bill on the floor is because he gets history, and i think one of the differences may be that congress is sworn in on january 3rd. there is a big? whether republicans will be in the majority or democrats and if democrats are in the majority, it will most likely be speaker hakeem jeffries who will be making the decision on whether to certify the election or not along with the majority party if the democrats in fact do win the majority. >> can we go back for a second? i feel like what i am hearing you say as he was okay with not doing the right when he was just a congressman but when he speaker of the house he will do the right thing? is that right? >> well, there was a political decision to make. i made the decision to certify the electors. others, congressman chip roy and others made the decision to certify the electors. the decision not to certify the electors, was, i believe, a

political decision. they knew the democrats had the vote to certify the electors. they knew donald trump was going to go after people who didn't vote to certify the electors. is the decision, just vote against it and move forward and that's not the first time in american history we've had that. the 2016 election there were democrats who did not want to certify. it goes back years in terms of the party who didn't win the election trying to challenge the election, but in this case, obviously much different. we had a riot on january 6. we had a much larger number of republicans both in the house and senate who decided to not certify the election. >> understood. i was just you know, do the right thing in politics. new topic. nikki haley got about 20% in last nights indiana gop primary. this woman has been out of the race for two months. should this be a big warning to

donald trump? >> i think every one of the primary elections was a big warning to donald trump. i think in new hampshire there were a similar number of republicans that didn't vote in an interesting part of that is that those republicans who did not vote for former president trump were pulled and said they will not vote for former president trump. i think he has an issue in bringing republicans to the table. his polling numbers do not reflect that he and his polling numbers and battleground states are very competitive, sometimes ahead, sometimes behind with president biden, but the number of republicans who will not come home this election, i think, is going to be a significant factor. >> there are two more we just heard about this week. paul ryan and jeff duncan, lifetime republicans said this week that they will not vote for donald trump in november. what about you, will you vote for him? >> i said i won't vote for

convicted felon. i'm not making the decision at this point and who i'm going to vote for. i just want to make one thing really clear that is the former lieutenant governor in georgia, not jeff duncan the congressman in north carolina but yes i think there are a number of high-profile republicans who will not support former president trump in this election. >> i get you haven't made your decision yet but i do want to ask you, paul ryan said this week -- i just want to pull it out. paul ryan said that this is a character issue. jeff duncan of georgia said that the gop must move on from trump if it wants to survive. i know you're not saying who you are going to vote for, but do you agree with those two statements from those two men? >> i think there is a typical split in the republican party between libertarians and conservatives. now we have a third group, maga republicans who are supporting trump no matter what had he has a loyalty in the republican party that is unbelievable.

he also has a vote that's hard to measure in polls, just like it was in 2016. i think the republican party at some point will move beyond the strong personality that donald trump exerts and will get back to the issue between conservatives and libertarians moving forward so i do think paul is right in terms of how the republican party evolves in the next 10 years but right now , this election, it is clearly donald trump's republican party. >> all right then. congressman, pleasure to meet you. thank you for joining me. i appreciate it. former congress in -- congressman buck, thanks. when we return, how president biden is putting trumps empty promises in the spotlight. you don't want to miss this one the 11th hour continues. >>

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during the previous administration my predecessor made promises that he broke more than kept. left a lot of people behind in communities like racing. i predecessor came to racing with the promise of quote, reclaiming our country's proud manufacturing legacy. we had infrastructure day every week for four years, didn't build a thing. >> president biden is ramping up attacks, accurate attacks, and donald trump. today in the state of wisconsin

he announced a $3.3 billion microsoft facility focused on artificial intelligence. he says it will create thousands of jobs, and microsoft's ceo agrees. this thing is being built in the same physical location that then president trump promised six years ago that a $10 billion hub from the company foxconn would be built. he said it would be the eighth wonder of the world but surprise, surprise, it was never built. i have david, host of bloomberg's the big tech podcast and the managing entity -- editor for the financial times. david, today, even fox news had to give president biden credit for this move in wisconsin. our people finally starting to see the big benefits of this huge infrastructure package?

>> i hope so. this is, as you pointed out, really delicious split screen, trump with his hardhat and golden shovel in this fellow field that sat there for 5+ years, biden going back to that fellow field insane we are going to make this into something. you know, i think this is still the struggle for the white house to convey to the american people that look, four major pieces of legislation were passed under this president, billions of dollars were supposed to be invested in the u.s. economy. some but has been, some has not been but communicating to that -- that to the american people that the chipset, the inflation act has trickled down to them.

>> yes, there is a disconnect because our everyday lives are currently very expensive but i want to stay on this one point. there has been a lot of research around the chips act and the infrastructure bill and a lot of this money has not been spent by this white house. i think something like 1/5 of the money. some people view this as a big failure on the part of the white house, but is it? or is it smart spending? because guess what, if they blew through all those billions of dollars already we would be saying they are spending crazy democrats who have no discipline. >> you also need the companies to show up and ask for the tax incentives to break ground. the one place i would disagree is that i don't think we are going to see, before the election, biden getting credit for this. it's been happening for years. arizona he builds a chip plant. south of town he builds a chip plant all because of the chips act in his getting no credit for this in arizona, a swing state and i don't know why that is because of you look at all the numbers on the labor market and unemployment, it's the tightest labor market we've had in a generation. we have a poll coming out next week that shows his numbers are

even slipping on the economy. >> okay, because donald trump didn't get anything done on infrastructure but he got these big corporate tax cuts done and that is why so many corporate leaders still side with trump but here's the thing. if these tax cuts get extended, and they most likely will of 10 -- if trump wins it crashes the economy yet again. it doesn't help our economy. >> we get reading after reading about what it would mean for the economy if those tax cuts were extended today. a $4 trillion deficit addition if those were to be a extended but as you say, there are wealthy voters lining up behind him because of the potential awards of all of this and also because of what we saw during his administration with this spaghetti strategy when it comes to economic policy. he floats what he might do or might not do. you hear this buzz of advisers suggesting things in him seizing on elements of it. there was that 80 minute interview with time magazine when there were very concrete questions about what he would

do and there was this trademark fuzziness around his answers. this feels eerily familiar to what it felt like which is throw it on the wall, see what sticks, see what loopholes we can get through and what happens as a result, that round of chaos is appealing to a certain wealthier tranche of the electorate. >> but the ebb the certainty of that messaging is that it does work. people with a man, donald trump, like him or not, he's mr. made in america but the manufacturing renaissance that occurred in the last 20 years as happened in the last three years under joe biden. >> it's electric vehicles, electric batteries, ship plants. we can all talk about this and put up pictures of the plants going up. when you look at the polling numbers he's not getting credit for it and i don't know why. >> i will tell you why is not getting credit for it. because our rent is high, our interest rates are high. >> it's food and gas. inflation and you look at every

poll. 80% of the people we polled says the biggest stress they are having financially is inflation and they blame biden for it. >> and guess what, if donald trump for the president today we would still be suffering from inflation like every other country in the world. i want to stay on electric charging stations. elon musk, cofounder of tesla, that is trumps a boy, yet the maga crowd are anti--electric vehicles and joe biden is the one doing so much to support ev's, the tax credits, all these battery operations, charging stations. how do you reconcile this one? >> elon musk x wounded in many ways and one of the biggest one is that this administration has not embraced him. they will have car company executives come to the white house, they don't bring him there. he feels very slightest -- slighted about that.

>> it's not like you don't have a zillion government contracts with him. >> the pentagon does. we are getting to this point though i think there is this conversation about protectionism and how president biden approaches the economy. you see so much progress in so much that china is doing and there is this variation on a theme, which is complaints about industrial overcapacity in china, that they are giving themselves a leg up in the global economy. when it comes to electric vehicles, china is able to make these more cheaply for whatever reason. biden has to figure out how to make that make sense to the american people. >> i like discussing the economy with you two boys. before we go, an update on the growing tension between the united states states and israel. tonight, president biden issued a report about a pause over a

weapons deal. >> reporter: tonight in a stinging rebuke of a close american ally, president biden halting a weapons shipment of 3500 bombs to israel, just as israeli troops are targeting hamas in rafah. >> they're going to rough up. they have not gone to rough yet. if they go to rafah i'm not providing the weapons. >> we have concerns about what it would mean for the civilian population there when you look at the way israel has conducted its operations in the past. >> i think it's a hugely irresponsible decision. there should never be any question about america's commitment, the united states commitment to israel. >> reporter: and israeli official telling nbc news there is deep frustration over the u.s. decision and tonight, a

rift over humanitarian aid >> it is imperative that they get the food that they need, the water they need. >> tonight, cia director williams -- william burns is back in cease-fire talks in cairo. israel wants rafah to be excluded from any cease-fire. and israeli official denies that. still, the state department said today an agreement is within reach. when we come back, biden might be one of the most productive presidents in modern history, but does the average american realize it? we will talk messaging with a white house alum that did it better than anyone. . well she t

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why should people here believe that you will succeed at creating jobs where trump failed? >> he's never succeeded in creating jobs and i've never failed. i've created over 15 million jobs since i've been prent. 15 million. >> over the last three years, joe biden's major spending

bills have jumpstarted our economy in a big way. they have helped the country bounce back from covid, invested in our infrastructure, boosted chipmakers and addressed climate change but here's the thing. we were just talking about it. americans do not know enough about them. politico asked voters if they had heard about biden's four major bills and most only knew about one of them so what can be done? i'm happy to welcome my dear friend and colleague, jen psaki, former press secretary of the white house and now you know her as the host of inside with jen psaki right here on msnbc. she has a new book out that you must read, "say more ." it is out now. we talk about this all the times and you are the communications expert for that specific white house. how can this administration connect, solve for this disconnect between all of these huge accomplishments and people

realizing them? >> the next couple of months the best thing they can do is make every event and every speaking opportunity the president does a contract -- contrast with trump and they may not feel like giving all of the people a list of all of the things you've done as president. right now what people need to understand is the choice. the president probably wants to bang his head against the wall right now because people don't know all the things he has done but what i learned when i worked for president obama for eight years is that it often does not come until the end of your time. that is when people start to understand what you've actually accomplished and what you have done. >> so, was today good strategy on the white house's part? it's donald trump stay off and he is sitting in mar-a-lago and joe biden goes to wisconsin to the location where trump had the golden shovel and joe biden

delivered. in your opinion, was today brilliant strategy? >> today was great because whether we like it or not, you and i are probably sick of talking about donald trump but he's going to be the republican nominee so they need to make everything a choice, everything have a little edge to it, everything putting trumps back against the wall because the politics of this the contrast is what is going to get covered, so today was a good way of doing that. also, in a state which was won by less than 1% the last two presidential cycles. that gets you covered and political newspapers. that is important so yes, a plus. >> when i would look at you in the white house press briefing room i always thought about this.

as the person in charge of communicating for the white house, but for the democratic party when you think about who joe biden has to represent beyond just being president, how do you effectively communicate what is going on and accomplishments and fit everybody under that great big tent? the economy is a good example. joe biden needs to work and wants to work with corporate america so we can have a strong functioning economy, and there are factions within the democratic party who immediately think big business is bad business. how do you solve for that? >> you can solve for it sometimes by finding something you can all agree on, the infrastructure bill in the battle over that is a good example because the way the president sold that bill, the way we sold that bill is one where it was building a bridge. not even intending to do an analogy there, building a bridge, meaning it was something that ceos and business leaders could get behind. it was something the overwhelming majority of

democrats ultimately voted for and the republicans could, too. there was a commonality. who doesn't want to have better roads and bridges for their commuting to work. it's not going to work every time. the democratic party has a big tent, of course, there have been a range of disagreements. often, it's about the size of things, the size of a bill to address the climate crisis, the size of a bill to do something about housing. sizes often what the debate is about, but finding commonalities -- >> so like junk fees. >> that's true. people don't like junk fees and lowering the cost of insulin. there are things, including with republicans, they can agree on. >> i'm sure there are a lot of republicans who would like to get hearing aids over the come counter at a lower price. no, i wanted to be more difficult and expensive to get hearing aids. you mentioned you worked for president obama for eight years. obviously you work for

president biden and you also worked under john kerry and in the book you said one of them was the most intimidating. i'm going to give our audiences second-guess who that person is. i want you to share for us who and why, because i guessed it wrong. before i read it, my team said -- i guessed it wrong. >> really? barack obama was the one who scared me the most because he is so brilliant. he is someone who thinks and talks in nuance, who always read the briefing materials, who knew the answers almost before you did, and it took me sometime to be comfortable enough in my own skin to be giving him advice and be offering feedback to him and that is something applicable not just if you are briefing the president of the united states, if you are briefing a ceo, range of people in a range of work environments it is recognizing and learning, which it took me sometime to do, that being a yes-man or a yes woman is not actually how you advise a bus so i tell the story of my entire journey and being so nervous around barack obama to ultimately be in one of his closest advisers in the second

term of his presidency. >> no, one of the best words in the english language. congratulations on the book. great to see you. you've been in new york for days. you need to go home. your kids are like, let's go. we are back right after a quick break. clearly -- quick break. clearly --

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no time for a last thing, but i do wish you a good night. you can listen to every episode of "the 11th hour" as a podcast free. grab your phone and scan the qr code there on your screen. for now, i'm signing off. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i'll see you again tomorrow.