been involved, to be honest with you, in that case. the president will decide and others will decide. i can tell you that i wish her the very best. i have prayed for her and want the best for her and i know the president will do the right thing. >> the last question would be the other sort of trone cases he is self-funded. will you have enough money to be able to compete in a general election? >> absolutely i will. i have been a prolific fundraiser. i have raised more than any senate candidate in maryland history. i will not only raise money, but we have the support of the democratic party that will come in. in this race, recognize that we will not just need money. we've seen a person who spent $61 million to earn a dead tie with me and has not been ahead of larry hogan in a single pole. >> we are out of time. thank you for being here and we should say that we have reached out to david trone to invite him on the show and have not

yet received a response. tonight on "all in" -- >> there are so many moving pieces that i think it becomes harder and harder to see how one of these cases actually make it to trial other than the one in new york, before the election. >> new york or bust as judge cannon delays the classified documents trial indefinitely. >> it is truly a disgrace that she is not doing her job. >> tonight, the failure of the court still donald trump accountable. then president biden heads to wisconsin to troll his rivals failure. >> you dug a hole with those golden shovels and then they fell into it. >> and a rare moment of agreement on capitol hill. >> declaring the office of the speaker of the house of representatives to be vacant.

>> as democrats team up with republicans to save speaker johnson's job. >> this is another wednesday on capitol hill. >> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. for all of donald trump's attempts to subvert and sabotage the democratic process to steal the last election in 2020, overall the system held. maybe barely, but it held. when push came to shove the vast majority of people involved in the election and institutions stare down a novel attempt to destroy the rule of law and they did the right thing. the system might have been, but it did not break. in dozens of cases, more than 60, judges up and down the entire judicial system, including judges appointed by trump and other republicans, ruled that trump's claims of voter fraud were complete nonsense and individual lawyers and legal officials, republicans in and out of the

white house, stood up against trump, too. >> there is almost no idea more un-american than the notion that anyone person would choose the american president. >> the president said suppose i do this, suppose i replace him with clark and he said what would you do? i said i would resign immediately. there's no way i'm serving one minute under this guy, jeff clark. >> i told him that the claims -- >> attorney general barr fled and resigned when the going got tough, but you got the point. it is important to point out because what we are seeing now in the last few weeks are glimmers of what it looks like when the courts don't hold. so yesterday federal judge aileen cannon, a trump appointee who first made a name

for herself in an egregious ruling on his behalf in the documents case, she announced she was indefinitely postponing trump's criminal trial for stealing top-secret government documents and she did so, and this is the important part, without much of a legal justification at all. she is opting not to settle open questions before her. which is her choice. i mean, that is her choice. and then pointing out the fact that they are not settled as the reason why she has to further delay. don't take my word for it. here is the new york times. but while the stated reason for putting off the trial indefinitely was that a large number of legal issues remained up in the air, she never mentioned that she herself helped the logjam of motions to pile up. over and over she has treated seriously arguments that most federal judges would have rejected out of hand. often her acceptance of unorthodox claims have resulted in significant delays and

bringing the charges in the classified documents case in front of a jury. we all know this. what donald trump wants most is for this child to be delayed after the election and cannon has so far granted him that wish. i'm not a lawyer, but i follow this quite closely. a lot of smart attorneys and legal experts with different backgrounds have said they've simply never seen anything quite like what cannon is doing. by transparently putting her thumb on the proverbial scale to delay and thereby benefit the man who put her on the bench in the first place. as obama attorney general eric holder said yesterday, and this is really something for him to say, let's deal with the reality here. the whole process has not been on the up and up. some, like former george w. bush white house lawyer have speculated that the judge cannon holds ambitions for

higher office, maybe the supreme court. others like ty cobb think she is both incompetent and in the tank for the ex-president. >> all she has done is make official what everybody including jack smith already knew, which is no intention of getting this case to trial and she was not competent to get this case to trial. the things she has done are really inexplicable and it is tragic how she talks about having honored the administration of justice by postponing the trial. she has not honored the public's interest for one day in this case. >> this obvious conflict of interest raises an important point. the rule of law, which we talk about a lot on the show and network and venerate is only as good as the people executing it in good faith. to be clear, there are plenty of autocracies from egypt to russia that have laws, statutes, lawyers, judiciaries,

bar associations, their version of it. they have all that stuff. they just execute the law in a way that essentially supports a predetermined outcome that is corrupted by the power of certain authorities. take the example of the wall street journal reporter who is currently incarcerated in russia under bogus espionage charges. he is not a spy, he is a journalist. he has lawyers. he is accused of violating specific laws. they didn't just say we are kidnapping him. his case is ostensibly going through the russian legal system. you see him at these court dates he keeps having, but no one seriously believes this is anything other than trumped up to essentially take an american hostage to trade for someone or believes that he is going to have a fair trial. the strategy is obviously to delay as long as possible to keep this man hostage for

political reasons and that is what keeps happening in court date after court date. we know what's going to happen and again, i can't stress this enough. in many ways i don't think it is an overstatement to say that is the difference between a free society and an authoritarian one. it is not judges and lawyers, everyone has lows. to be clear we are nowhere near that level of judicial corruption we are seeing in russia, in this country, or from what we are seeing from judge cannon or the supreme court. these are totally different worlds. the trump -- the court is entertaining trump's ridiculous claims of immunity. that we might not be able to count the court as an impartial judiciary anymore. these are different worlds, but what we are seeing is a glimmer of what it looks like when you just can't really trust that good faith is driving the process. that is what it is.

the problem becomes what to do about it and the only answer i can come back to and i have thought about this a lot at the human level is shame, norms. in the end that is what saved us the last time around. yes, the law helped, but if the doj had been to trump's will if there had been three or four lawyers who are willing to send a letter baselessly claiming there was widespread voter fraud or if mike pence had a need to throw out the elect there's from swing states. if his lawyers advised him he could do that. i don't know. always got our individual people, formed by the norms and institutions they are embedded in, making decisions. hopefully coming to the right conclusions and acting in good faith or at the very least bowing to public pressure or shame not to do the wrong thing. the least we can do now is state plainly and openly that

what trump appointed judge aileen cannon is doing is a scandal. when our judges don't act in good faith, in an effort to achieve a desired outcome, we are in dangerous territory. that is true with donald trump running to finish the job he started on january 6. a job that can only be completed if the judiciary allows itself to be corrupt and right now the signs are not promising. andrew weissmann spent years working in the department of justice, most recently as the lead prosecutor for special counsel robert mueller's team. mary mccord served as the chief of the criminal division and of course they host together the award-winning, prosecuting donald trump podcast, which is a must listen and the lifeline if you are following all this. they join me now. great to have you both. here's the conundrum.

trump's view of all of this stuff -- he has the authoritarian view. all of the laws are nonsense. you tell me who the judges. i don't want to end up mirroring that view, so when he says of course the judges ruling against me, he has a hack or this biden judges ruling against me. so i really want to bend over backwards to avoid that because i don't have that view. i think good faith is a good thing. i think the law actually operates. am i wrong to be really unnerved by the actions of judge cannon? >> no, you're not. by the way, that phrase, that donald trump says, came from roy cohn. essentially no one has principles. might makes right. the two are not a nation of laws.

mary and i were both in the national security community and the alleged crimes in the mar-a- lago case are so important to that community, to have them vindicated. donald trump saying he has all sorts of defenses. a number of things. the department of justice wants to give him his day at court. by saying the public has a right to -- exactly. this is a situation where we are saying we want to be held to our burden to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. we want to vindicate the public's right to a speedy trial. >> in florida with a judge appointed by trump. >> in terms of where they brought the case. there were parts of the case that they could have brought,

but they do what you are supposed to do. where is the sort of locus of all the facts? one out of three chance that this is what they would get and to say it is a disgrace, to say it is disappointing is too mild. i agree with you, it is fundamentally upsetting, because there aren't a lot of checks in the system for a judge who behaves this way. whether it is because of partisanship, incompetence, or a combination, it is kind of irrelevant, because the result is the same. >> mary, i want to read to you from judge cannon's justification that the court determines a trial date at this juncture before the resolution of the pretrial and issues remaining and forthcoming would be inconsistent with the court's duty to fully and fairly consider the pretrial motions before the court and necessary

to present this to a jury. a lot of people point out that those motions have stacked up because she has not resolved them. >> yes, that's right. you know, she also, in a lengthy footnote in the same order today, listed all the things she has resolved almost as if she wanted to justify, look, i've been doing a lot of work. i've had a lot of hearings, but there are so many more because this case is complex. in some ways it is. it involves the classified information procedures act. i know she had never dealt with that before. you know what she lacks beyond experience and competence as a judge? she also, i think, lacks mentors and by that i mean in the d.c. district court for example we have a very experienced bench and when a new judge comes to the bench some of the most senior judges, people like recently retired judge thomas hogan, they take

those new judges under their wing. particularly on a case that is sensitive like this or involves classified information or involves, you know, something beyond the run-of-the-mill legal issues. they are a sounding board. they are somebody to talk to about here is how you should think about scheduling. here is why it is important to move this along. here are things you can rule on the papers and she is down in the district with two other judges, so i feel like i'm not going to get in her head about what her motives are. we all know the record. we know her early rulings when donald trump tried to prevent the department of justice from reviewing classified information or having the intelligence community review classified information to determine what damage it might have done to national security by being so improperly stored and subject to guests and visitors at mar-a-lago seeing a door getting information from

what was stored there. beyond trying to discern motives, there is an utter lack of experience and that shows every time she grants a continuance. every time she schedules things for more time than they need and every time that she refuses to rule on the papers and instead has hearings when she doesn't. we see this i think time and time again. >> quickly and to you, briefly, andrew, to me there is a contrast with this and what is happening in new york. look, i sort of feel like whatever the outcome is, i feel like this has been a good faith process. maybe they will acquit him. maybe it will be a hung jury, i don't know. ultimately it feels like a good faith process. >> absolutely ended many ways this is an ideal trial. you have an experienced judge who has the temperament that

you want, but you are also seeing collectively and experienced defense team. an experienced prosecution team. a lot of defendants, 99.9, do not have that. so you are seeing in new york the justice system the way it should be and i agree with you. the jury will do what the jury does. >> andrew weissmann and mary mccord, thank you both. really appreciate it. coming up, a major embarrassment for marjorie taylor greene. why democrats did something they haven't done before. they stepped in to save the republican speaker. that's next. er. that's next. and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you.

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this afternoon, georgia republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene made good on her threat to oust republican speaker mike johnson. >> the form of the resolution is as follows. declaring the office of speaker of the house of representatives to be vacant. this is the party for the american people watching. >> the gentle lady will suspend. order. order. >> it looks fun banging that gavel, didn't it?

things did not get better from there. the republican majority leader moved to table the motion, which would kill it. within 40 seconds of the vote opening, it had the support to pass and then in the end democrats and republicans voted to save mike johnson's speakership. according to the house minority leader, it was the right thing for his caucus to do. >> our decision to stop marjorie taylor greene from plunging the house of representatives and the country into further chaos is rooted in our commitment to solve problems for everyday americans in a bipartisan matter. -- bipartisan manner. we need more common sense and less chaos in washington, d.c. marjorie taylor greene and extreme maga republicans are chaos agents. house democrats are change agents. >> joining me now, or national

political reporter who has been all over capitol hill covering the effort to oust speaker johnson. as someone embedded in the story, what did you think of today's outcome? >> it was an extraordinary and somewhat theatrical series of events. the outcome has not been in doubt. it is been clear that democrats would provide the votes to table this motion, essentially kill the effort to oust mike johnson, but also the first time in modern history we've seen the speaker of the house have to rely on votes from the minority party to save his job. to avoid himself getting overthrown. so that was notable and ultimately why marjorie taylor greene did this. she wanted to make a point that mike johnson cannot support in that -- cannot survive in that job. this was a vote to table the vote to overthrow. it is parliamentary gibberish, but it is important to

democrats because they can go home and say they just prevented marjorie taylor greene from getting her vote. that's important because 163 democrats effectively voted to save mike johnson in this job, a man they described as an election denier, dangerous to democracy. earlier today they accused of scaremongering. what democrats are trying to do is present themselves as the adults in the room, to present themselves as team normal against squabbling delinquents. >> unlike mccarthy, johnson clearly negotiated. when i was covering the mccarthy stuff and we were on air, what was clear was democrats didn't trust the guy and he never reached out. he didn't say look, they are going to come after me, let's strike a deal. i don't know if there was an explicit deal between johnson and democrats, but what is clear is there is open lines of communication and traditional and transactional dealmaking

happening. >> there is no personal animosity to mike johnson the way there was to mccarthy. there was no explicit deal. we've talked to a lot of members about this. we've talked to a lot of sources. we've looked for examples or signs of a handshake deal that was made. ultimately what convinced democrats to save mike johnson was the fact that mike johnson followed through with promises, like funding the government on the basis of the bipartisan deal. like putting ukraine aid on the floor, a difficult thing for him to do. he went up against the maga wing of his party ended that vote. he also did the fisa vote against progressive members who wanted changes to the surveillance law. what democratic leaders saw was a speaker essentially giving them the vice partisan -- the bipartisan vote they wanted. there are not a lot of bills that have to be done. there is faa reauthorization.

everyone thinks government funding and farmville will be punted until after the election. this is the last train leaving the station and marjorie taylor greene didn't have standing for her demands. the majority principal, which she didn't have anywhere close to a majority of the majority for this vote, which her colleagues noted as well. >> i'm not going to get into who the rule is named after, but you should google it. donald trump, this was hilarious. everyone says marjorie taylor greene was putting for trump. trump waited until after it happened and then said vote to motion to table, which was so funny. what it says to me was that honestly the maga party doesn't care that much about the actual guts of spending legislation. on the whole, donald trump doesn't care that much.

they take their cues from him. it is not the same type of austerity party that it once was. they just can't get that amped up about it. >> reporter: candidly, chris, trump made himself l relevant to this motion to vacate trial. she said don't do ukraine aid and johnson called her bluff. he's had come after me if you want. trump never weighed in in a firm, direct way. trump is very clear what he wants to be. when he cares about an outcome like killing the bipartisan border deal. he makes it abundantly clear that republicans need to do this or there will be consequences. he didn't do anything like that. johnson went to mar-a-lago ended that pilgrimage some weeks ago and trump stood with him and praised him. he praised her as well, but there was never a very clear indication from trump as to which way to go, which is why republicans voted the way they did. >> sahil kapur, thank you very much.

still ahead, the folks at trump tv keep insisting you are better off four years ago. >> how important do you think a vaccine ultimately is -- >> i didn't say i wanted to. i feel about vaccines like i feel about tests. this is going to go away without a vaccine. it is going to go away and we are not going to see it again. >> the latest look back at why donald trump can never return to the office ahead. e ahead. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry.

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today, president joe biden was in racing, wisconsin, announcing a $3.3 billion investment by microsoft to build an artificial intelligence data center. the project is expected to create 2300 construction jobs in a state hit hard by a decline in several decades in u.s. manufacturing. there is a particular reason biden made the trip to wisconsin today to highlight this particular investment. the location of the new microsoft project has special significance. to understand that story you have to go back briefly to 2016. of course that election was a shock for a lot of the country and not just because donald trump when the electoral college and the presidency, but because of the way he won, flipping former democratic voters in states like wisconsin. the idea was that too many voters in the industrial

midwest, donald trump among other things sold himself successfully as a kind of middle finger to the free trade agenda of the last few decades. an agenda that really did got industry and manufacturing jobs across the region that trump was able to flip. as we now know, of course, donald trump was all talk and no results. that was clear back then, too. his vow to bring about a manufacturing renaissance in the united states was a transparent con. his promises to invest in infrastructure became a running joke. he imposed a slew of new tariffs that caused americans more than -- cost americans more than $2 billion. there were 154,000 fewer people employed in manufacturing than when he was inaugurated. in fact, one of the first moves after his election, when he announced he saved 800 jobs at an indianapolis carrier plant that was set to move to mexico, that turned out to be a total flop as well.

600 other jobs at the plant ended up eliminated along with 700 more at a second indiana plant. that of course was the signature trump move. a big, glitzy announcement that turns into nothing. perhaps the most egregious example in the crowded field came in 2018 when then president trump wielded a literal golden shovel for the groundbreaking of what was supposed to be a $10 billion project in racing, wisconsin. trump claimed to have negotiated a deal with fox con that would bring 13,000 jobs to the state. >> we are restoring america's industrial might and thanks to the hard-working patriots like you, we are making america greater than ever before. it is greater than ever before. to fox con and to all of the amazing wisconsin workers with us today and all over this thing, i want to wish you good luck and congratulations on

truly -- i think we can say, the eighth wonder of the world. this is the eighth wonder of the world. >> can you say that, really? it soon became clear this was all in outrages, almost comically ludicrous boondoggle. as reported in a great bit of investigative reporting. the project defaulted on almost every promise. the factory, the tech campus and the 1000 jobs simply never materialized. the building called an lcd factory, about 1/20 of the size of the original plan is little more than a shell. even the handful of the jobs the company claims to have created are less than by -- less than real, held by people so that the company could reach the number required to get tax subsidy payments from wisconsin. many employees sat in cubicles watching netflix and playing games on their phones.

the whole thing was a fiction. but there was a real idea. embedded somewhere deep in donald trump's rhetoric of america first. the idea of a rebellion against the specific version of outsourced, globalized capitalism that really did hit certain sectors of this country very, very hard. when joe biden came to office he and his team began implementing economic policy that basically asked, what if we took all of that seriously? what if we took seriously the concern that a whole lot of people in this country have been left behind? that the era of outsourcing really did have incredibly damaging effect? what if we tried to change that? so he began with the infrastructure act which has funded over 50,000 projects across all 50 states. the inflation reduction act invested $350 billion in the

climate and clean energy and it will probably surpass that amount, actually, it has been so successful. the chips act allocates billions of dollars to bring back manufacturing and high- tech semi conductors. coming full circle, president biden unveiled the real plan for the site of donald trump's failed fox con project. >> my predecessor came with the promise of, quote, reclaiming our country's proud manufacturing legacy. we had infrastructure week every week for four years. didn't build the thing. i'm here with senator ron johnson. holding a golden shovel, promising to build the eighth wonder of the world. are you kidding me? look what happened. they dug a hole. with those golden shovels, and then they fell into it. fox con turned out to be just that, a con. go figure. >> even fox and friends had to admit that joe biden has succeeded where donald trump

failed. >> so, peter, this new, a.i., microsoft thing, $3 billion, big job creator, isn't that the same town that fox con said, i don't know, five or six years ago, were going to build a big plant and they never did? >> yes and that was a huge trump announcement and they said the factory would be the eighth wonder of the world, but then they decided to scale back their plans and the land is still available. so microsoft is going in. >> it's going to be good for those people. >> the story of these two plans for racine, wisconsin is the story of donald trump versus joe biden -- donald trump's policy was a con job. joe biden and the democratic party really have undertaken, across the entire administrative state, the entire government, legislatively, a very serious, granular project to rebuild america's manufacturing base.

to create good paying, union jobs for people across the country. even an and specifically in areas that did not vote for joe biden and the project is having real results. it is succeeding. today the contrast was on full display. >> hey, everybody. the right to vote. equal access to health care. book banning and other forms of censorship that threaten our right to learn. and here's something truly shocking, right now in our country hundreds of thousands of people are incarcerated simply because they couldn't afford bail. that's not free and it's not fair. but there is hope for change. it lives in people like you and in a great organization called the american civil liberties union. so please join me and other concerned americans in defending our civil liberties by joining the aclu as a guardian of liberty today. all it takes is just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day.

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>> university of maryland global campus is a school for real life, one that values the successes you've already achieved. earn up to 90 undergraduate credits for relevant experience and get the support you need from your first day to graduation day and beyond. what will your next success be? remember ronald reagan talking about jimmy carter? >> ronald reagan used to ask a day >> are you better off? >> are you better off? >> are you better off?

>> better off. >> better off. >> better off. >> then you were four years ago? >> every single week, multiple times a week, conservatives keep asking the question, are you better off than you were four years ago? here is fox news on monday. >> that is exactly what this election is about. whether you are better off than you were four years ago or you can be bamboozled into believing you don't know the difference. >> i know the difference. let's try to remember, shall we? what was life like four years ago as the deployment rate jumped to its highest rate since the great depression. as the white house rejected cdc standards for reopening the states even as staffers with top access kept catching the virus. more than 1000 americans per day were dying and division and anger was growing nationwide. president trump held a summit at the white house where congressional republicans took

turns praising him. >> thank you, mister president, for all of the support for new york state. >> i appreciate your work ethic. >> this man goes 18, 20 hours per day. the most transparent president in history. >> thank you for bringing us back here to show the american people we can be here and do our work. the democrats are cowering at home right now. >> meanwhile, vice president pence, the public face of the administrations covid effort made a show of delivering boxes of ppe to doctors and joked about the situation. >> those are empty, sir. >> can i carry the empty ones? >> they are a lot easier. >> now listen to the reporting from four years ago, versus what donald trump and the white house were saying. >> the virus is again heading home at the white house, where

two staffers of tested positive. >> mister president, is there a reason why people are not wearing masks of the white house? >> they are. people serving the art. >> the number of deaths still climbing at over 1000 per day, now over 78,000. >> mister president, you said that you would be the first person to get a vaccine. how important do you think a vaccine ultimately is day >> i didn't say i wanted to. it is not a correct statement. i feel about vaccines the way i feel about test. this will go away without a vaccine and we will not see it again. >> of new cases surging in minnesota, nebraska, iowa, and wisconsin, health experts say expect a spike in covid cases as states loosen restrictions. >> if it picks up it is very hard to stop again. >> mister president, you were with seven american heroes earlier today, all in their 90s. did you consider wearing a mask when you were with them? >> no, because i was very far

away. >> did he consider wearing a mask? >> they made the choice to come here, because they chose to put their nation first. >> you are not worried about me, you are worried about them. that's okay. >> the trump administration is rejecting guidelines offering detailed advice to states about how to reopen public places. >> some people have a heart attack. most people get through it. >> historic unemployment, worst since the great depression. american families going hungry. thousands lined up at food banks. 3 million more americans filing for unemployment as the job situation grows increasingly bleak. >> unemployment is at 14%, perhaps going to 20%. >> i think the number will be a great number. i'm not going to say exactly what. i call it the transition to greatness. we will have a great year next year. you will see.

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tonight, president joe biden articulated for the first time what appeared to be a direct warning from him personally to the israeli government if they want a full- scale invasion of rafah. the u.s. will hold certain weapons shipments to israel. >> civilians have been killed in gaza as a consequence of the bonds and other ways in which they go after population centers. i made it clear that if they go into rafah, they haven't gone in the yet, if they go into rafah, i'm not supplying them weapons that have been used historically to deal with the cities, to deal with that problem. >> the president's statement comes on the day after the u.s. said it already paused one weapons shipment to israel last week, a shipment that included 1800 2000 pound bombs and 1700

500 pound bombs. the white house is concerned the 2000 pound bombs could be used in rafah, where over 1.4 million displaced palestinians are sheltering. ben rhoades cohosts " part to save the world," and joins me now. then, there has been so much back and forth about the biden administration not happy with benjamin netanyahu, anonymous things, things the president has said. this seems to me like a pretty big deal, him saying it himself. we have been here before. what do you think from your perch. >> i think it is, i think we've reached the breaking point, chris. this has been building for several months. the administration, which has backed israel, they've had rhetorical difference with benjamin netanyahu but they haven't put any real hold on weapons shipments we used our leverage at the united nations, for instance. vermont, they have been saying

rafah is a red line. that was a term president biden used. they have sent people over to israel at every level of the u.s. government to come counseled him not to do this vision of rough appeared over 1 million people in rafah have been misplaced times. already, the rough across and that has been used to get the fuel into gaza is shut down. the fuel is necessary to sustain hospitals, to drive trucks, to get aid around. this would be an expensive increase in the humanitarian crisis. i think biden is drawing a line and say i finally reached my breaking point. if you go into rafah like that, we are not going to provide you with offensive weapons. >> there's two ways to think about the israeli posture and i wanted to get your insight. one is that benjamin netanyahu believes, and talk about some reporting we have on this, that to eradicate hamas, which is the stated aim of this war effort, one must go into rafah because that is where the last battalions of hamas are hiding. yes, it will be bad for civilians but that is just war

and you have to get the last of hamas. the other, which i've heard some people articulate both in the israeli press and the american press is they are trying to gain the amount of leverage in the negotiations over a cease-fire in the imminence of a rafah incursion gives them that leverage. i wonder if you think it is one or the other. >> i think their inclination is the first. the problem is they can't destroy hamas. they set themselves an unachievable military objective. that is always a dangerous trap to fall into. >> we know it will in the u.s. >> we have done it ourselves. hamas is an idea, it is an ideology. the political leaders are not in gaza. they are outside the country. some of them are in turkey. i do think that they want to be able to say that they took out of the leader of hamas military wing in gaza, who is in rough appeared they would like to probably take out a number of

other top military wing figures in gaza appeared to do that, there is no guarantee that they can do that and to do that, they would probably do the kinds of things they have done another place, which would kill thousands, if not tens of thousands of palestinians. not just killing the people they drop bombs on but the famine conditions could accelerate exponentially. we could be looking at children starving to death. i do think the cease-fire place and all this. the challenge is that the israeli position in the cease- fire and negotiations is we will accept 40 days of a cease- fire and exceeds for 33 israeli's released an extension of palestinian prisoners. but, they want to have the capacity to go back into rafah. we have seen this before, chris. they had one of the cease-fire positively in the war, then they resumed it full tilt. that is what hamas is not agreeing to. but president biden is trying to do, he's trying to salvage a cease-fire. he tried to send a message, i'm telling you, you have to go

through boy number two here. you have to take the cease-fire deal. look, maybe in a month, two months, you get intel on where the leadership is, where sinwar is, you can take a shot but you are not going to go in the yukon and these other places. >> to that point, the reporting from nbc tonight is that israel is demanding rafah be walled off from a cease-fire deal, according to four current and one u.s. official familiar with the discussions. which, again, if that is the demand, there is no, you are just saying you don't want the deal. if they don't want the deal, they will do what they are going to do. the question is whether to ask actively supports and supplies the weapons for something like that. >> i think the thing to watch, chris, one way is they go in and ignore us. benjamin netanyahu are, he's capable of doing that. what is we will have some spaceport policy. there's a third way in which we see what israel has been doing in recent days, they do these incursions, the tanks will in,

they take some airstrikes and they say we are not doing the full-scale invasion and then it becomes this kind of question by the biden administration, what is a full-scale invasion of rafah? that may be where we end up, a murky metal here we are, frankly, this is a slow-motion invasion that doesn't have the trauma of what we saw in gaza city and other parts of the gaza strip. in any case, though, i think we moved into a new phase where the u.s. has finally said, look, that is it. we are not going to provide you with the weapons to drop bombs on civilian populations. we are not going to provide you with the small arms to do this. the question is does that salvage a cease-fire in the coming days or not or do we go into a tenuous status quo where everyone interpretation of what is happening is different ? >> there are already people being told to evacuate from different parts of rafah to others, leaving their meager possessions behind in these camps and relocating. that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts now. good evening, alex. it was december