it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! . thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi nicolle, thank you so much. we're tracking big legal developments today, including a new delay in trump's federal espionage case over classified documents. the judge giving lawyers what they wanted. then there's the fallout from the damning testimony from the key witness in the new york trial, where one of the most

famous people in this case, stormy daniels, took the stand to tell her story under oath for the first time. >> the former president coming face-to-face with adult film actress stormy daniels -- >> the star witness to the prosecution took the stand. >> even the judge was pumped. he was like, please welcome to the stand, stormy daniels. >> stormy daniels gave a really detailed testimony -- really detailed. >> there have been contentious moments just in the past few moments, as stormy daniels faces cross-examination. >> let me tell you, it is not over yet. daniels is going to be back on the stand again on thursday. >> true, as this continues forward. daniels is the first eyewitness to recount trump's conduct in their encounter, that he later paid to cover up. announcement driving headlines here, we learned about much of what happened yesterday and seeing the fallout in the world as well as for the jury. headlines about how upset trump got. we'll get into that right now,

as well as how she will be headed back to continue what has been a damning set of details with corroboration for a jury that's trying to decide, in some sense, who's lying. now, with no cameras in court, some of what we learn about what happens inside the new york trial does come out more slowly. we've talked about that in our coverage. for example, tonight we have more information about a court exchange with the judge that did not break yesterday because most reporters could not hear it. you're looking at the court sketches. that's what we have, as we makes sense of this. it is news tonight because it only became more fully detailed in the latest court transcripts. the judge, who hammered the d.a.'s side times reporter who reported on tha -- side bar that occurred during part of daniels' testimony. the judge telling, i understand that your client, trump, is upset, but he's cursing audibly. he's shaking his head visually.

and that's contemptuous. the judge noting, that kind of conduct does have the potential to intimidate the witness, and the jury can see the conduct that trump was displaying. the point here is about legal fairness, not just some abstract idea of decorum. defendants must sit silently unless they get to the point in the trial where they choose to take the stand. they can weigh in that way. they cannot interfere, though, with the other witnesses on the stand or interfere with the jury's task of listening to only the witness and the evidence. this jury was trying to listen to stormy daniels. to put it simply, a fair trial is not supposed to run like some kind of live reaction video on the internet, where, as you watch one thing happen, you have other people react. sometimes the viewer absorbs that other person's reaction along with the story. if you've seen those youtube reaction videos, sometimes it's the reactor that can matter more

than, in this case, the witness. and that's exactly what the judge was saying they were against. now, it's supposed to be in a trial that you focus on listening only to the witness. if the defendant's perspective is raised, and that's a fair thing, right? trump obviously was upset by what she was saying, and he had some view he wanted to share. but that is also measured through questions by the defendant's lawyer, not by cursing in court. that did occur when trump's defense team pressed daniels on parts of her story and tried to go after her credibility. most of the people do note the key things at issue in the trial, not everything she's said, but the key part of this story and the money she received has been a con consistent tale. and her credibility may be a lynchpin to this case. so, daniels' testimony will continue tomorrow, and we are against the backdrop of the delay in the florida case that could go out to the election and the delay in the d.c. case, which we've covered because the supreme court helped trump out.

so, a lot of judges are out there clearly doing the things, delays, that fit donald trump's whole strategy of punting the election cases out past the election. so, we may not get rulings on whether or not a jury of his peers found him guilty of trying to steal an election or commit a coup. and that's a problem for democracy. meanwhile in new york, we have the one trial that is on pace to get us a verdict by the election. in fact, a lot sooner than the election. we're now bracing for the results, a verdict within roughly two to four weeks. so, that's the update on that top legal story tonight. next i want to tell you, we are going to turn to this year's election, and we're going to turn to something i can factually say to you right now, you will not see anywhere else tonight. it is a first time for us here at "the beat" as well. i invite you to join us for that after our shortest break. i'll see you in 90 seconds. sees [cough] flare-ups that could permanently damage my lungs.

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boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled... which is pretty un-boring if you think about it. both parties now have presumptive nominees, yet most americans say they oppose biden and trump running right now. most people say, if they could, they would want other choices. and yet here we are, barrelling towards a rematch of, as a factual matter two, fairly unpopular candidates. and has opened at least a possible or hypothetical lane for other challenges and new questions about the strength of any independent alternatives and which party they might ultimately damage more if they're not going to win

outright. and there are questions about whether there is a lane at all for a candidate with one of the most famous political names out there, and, well, the least experience in government. environmental attorney robert f. kennedy jr., son of the late senator, rfk, making his debut on "the beat" tonight. >> thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> let's start at the beginning. if you became president, what would change in people's lives? >> our country would change a lot. i have promised a wind down of forever wars, which both -- which president trump promised and has not done. i would align merger of state and corporate power, the capture of our industries by the

industries they're supposed to regulate. we have a chronic disease epidemic the in our country that's costing $4.3 trillion a year. it's five times our military government. i'd stop the line in government the day i come into office. i'm going to issue an executive order that any government official -- american public in conjunction with his federal duties will be dismissed. i'm going to address the issues at the control of our agricultural agencies by the processed food companies. we now have 1,000 ingredients in this country that are illegal in europe, and they're feeding that chronic disease epidemic. and i'm going to issue an executive order stopping the intelligence agencies from propagandizing the american public and ending censorship, any federal involvement in

censorship. >> so, that's a big agenda. >> yes. >> you've never served in government. 45 of the 46 presidents have. why should you become president to run the whole government when you don't have any low-level, mid-level, or high-level experience in the government? >> well, you don't need any government experience to run for president of this country under the constitution. the constitution framers anticipated that people would run who were not experienced in government. i've been around government my whole life. i say my principle qualification is that i've litigated against almost every one of the major federal agencies. i've sued cdc, nih, fda, usda, department of agriculture, the department of transportation. when you litigate against these agencies, you get a phd in

corporate capture and how to unravel it. >> but respectfully, that's in court. there's a lot of lawyers. we're both lawyers. but running the whole federal government, coming in with the problems you're defining, and having never shown, through your time, an interest in that kind of public service. other service, sure, but not that government service. you mentioned your family. you brought up your family. everyone in your family served in lower positions before pursuing the white house, some with congressional experience running 7, 10, 15 years. you look at that and you look at your name, and while political dynasties run in both parties, do you think you would be doing what you're doing without your name? if you were a lawyer without the name kennedy, how would your campaign be going? >> i think i'm better qualified than anyone who's running to run the government. and the reason for that is that the biggest issue today is the

merger of state and corporate power. it feeds the war machine. it feeds the chronic disease epidemic. it feeds the fed, the run away taxes, all of the issues. >> your core experience argument is you've done court cases on that so you have a different view of that than people -- >> i'm not intimidated by the agencies. that's the problem with every other politician who comes in. they all say they're going to fix things. >> i'm going to jump in to say, then there's the campaign math. this is not summer camp. this is not a brainstorming session. you have six months here to try to run to be in a position to win the electoral college. how many states are you on the ballot in right now? >> we are -- we have signatures to get on the ballot in ten states. we're not immediately filing those for strategic reasons. >> how many states are you on the ballot right now today? >> i'm on the -- we're on the ballot, i think, in two or three states. we could file tomorrow in be in ten. >> ten. here's my question. i've seen you talk about this. if you're not on enough ballots

to mathematically be eligible to win the electoral college in enough states by election day, are you going to drop out? >> i'm going to be on the ballot in every state. >> but if you're not -- >> i'm going to be on the ballot in every state by election day. i'll be on the ballot in every state by july. >> this is a big issue, as you know. i want to read something about -- it's not for the media to say who is a spoiler or not. the whole reason i have people on -- cornell west has been on. i've had a lot of trump aides on. the viewers get to hear. i want to read to you what one writer said about spoiler candidacies. quote, it siphons the vote from the democrat. it could lead to the republican winning. -- it's wrong to claim there's to distinction between the major party's candidates. do you understand that point? do you agree with that point? >> i agree with that point if i were a splitter. >> because i read -- i'll let you finish. but as you way have intuited,

i'm reading your 2000 statement that you wrote up. briefly here's what you said in 2000. take a listen. >> there's a political reality here, which is that his candidacy could draw enough votes in certain key states from al gore to give the entire election to george w. bush. >> i'll give you time to respond, but i want to be clear about this because i have the benefit of sitting with you. the issue is not just whether there's a spoiler or not. in all fairness, that depends what the voters do. i think one issue you can address today is you haven't spent your life as an independent third party person. you haven't spent your life fighting against both parties. you have been affiliated with one major party for a very long time. you made that argument on behalf of that same democratic party. now only at this stage that you're running are you saying different things about how it works. how do you respond to that? >> i would probably say the same thing again if the factual issues were the same.

i was speaking of ralph nader at that point. ralph nader had, oh, no chance of winning. you know, we just did a poll, ari, that we did this about ten times the size of any other poll. it's a poll that is a $200,000 poll. we polled 26,000 people in 50 states. and what that poll shows -- and every other poll that has head-to-heads between me and president biden and me and president trump says the same thing, every poll. when i'm pit against president biden, just me against him, i beat him in 39 states. he only wins 11 states. i dominate the electoral college. when i -- so, when i run against president trump, i beat him in the electoral college. the same poll shows that president biden cannot beat president trump, not only -- you said you were going to let me

finish. >> your argument e seems to be -- >> let me finish my argument. then you can carry on. >> we're having a back and forth. you're saying that hypothetically there's a poll that says you're doing so great. but you just told us you're on under five states' ballots and most polls -- >> you're changing the subject, ari. you're changing the -- the question is about whether i can get on the ballot. i'm definitely going to be on the ballot. >> i'm saying if your response to the nader comparison where you attacked him as a spoiler, where you're not a spoiler, i would say respectfully, you have not proven you're not a spoiler. >> a spoiler is somebody who cannot win and who is -- whose continued participation in the election will disrupt the expectations of somebody who can win. i can win. our polls and every other poll that's looked at head-to-head contests show that i've beat president trump and president biden if the other guy leaves.

>> you're talking about the incumbent president of the united states. >> but if -- but i -- under this criteria, president biden is the spoiler because he cannot win. he can't win. he does worse if i leave. >> you're comparing -- but you're comparing -- >> ari, ari, ari -- >> you're comparing hypothetical polls to a guy who won the presidency. you do seem, at times, to be warm towards president trump. and he is clearly warm towards you. >> i would definitely disagree with that. he just called me a radical fing liberal. >> but he also said you're a common sense guy and you guys in public have exchanged warm words. i think that's fair. and you said you're proud -- >> i have said good things about president biden too. >> and biden, fine. but here's where i'm going with the trump thing. you endorsed his opponent in 2016, correct? >> hillary. >> yes. >> yeah. >> right. what, since 2016, in his first

term and then him refusing to leave office peacefully and january 6th and everything since then has made you warmer towards him? i mean, you went from supporting hillary clinton against him in '16 to now however you want to describe it, the way you talk about him now. can you explain that for us? >> i can explain i'm running against him so obviously i don't want him to be president of the united states and i don't think he did a good job. and if you go look at my speeches, my statements, i am not mean-spirited. and i think president trump's and president biden's administrations have been catastrophic for this country. they've run a $34 trillion debt. >> would you say roughly equally catastrophic? >> i would say they've both been catastrophic -- >> but similar. >> -- in their own way. >> but similar? >> in their own way. you're trying to get me to quantify so you can win a debating point and i'm not going to do that. >> it's not a debating point -- hold on, hold on. it's not a debating point.

there's a big choice coming down and you are now inserting yourself, as you have the legal right to do as a candidate for office. you're someone who, in all fairness, was giving these speeches against nader for this kind of thing, was supporting clinton against trump, saying this is the danger of trump. and now people hear you. this is the chance to talk about it. people hear you as very similarly to nader saying, it's a pox on both houses, lesser of two evils. i want to play for you some of what donald trump -- >> wait, wait, wait -- >> i made this for you. this is what donald trump stands for and why people hear you, robert f. kennedy jr., talking about false equivalence -- >> this is debating tricks. you're lighting fires faster than i can put them out. every single thing you say -- >> okay. lake take a listen to this and you'll get the floor. >> knock the crap out of him, would you? seriously. i will pay for the legal fees. i promise. very fine people on both sides. these aren't people. these are animals.

stand back and stand by. the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. i said i want to be a dictator one day. >> people are concerned not that this is nader 2.0 but that you are using the platform and the following you have to suggest that they're both catastrophic and they're similar and that you, they say, are ignoring not only the policy difference but the actual possible democracy and autocratic threat of donald trump if he wins again, perhaps thanks to you. your response? >> yeah, i never said that. you know, like i said, i think both of them did bad things for our country. i think both of them contributed -- president trump more than any president has built a debt, $8 trillion, after coming in and promising a country that he was going to run the government like a business. he shut down every business, 3.3 million businesses, no due

process, no just compensation. that's a violation of the constitution. he ran up an $8 trillion debt. more money he spent and every president between george washington and george w. bush, 283 years, president biden is racing to catch up with them. he has added a trillion dollars in the last 100 days. they're both catastrophic. neither of them can solve that problem. let me tell you something else they can't do. neither of them can end the vitriol that you are trying to pump up right now. >> what have i said that's vitriolic -- i'm asking you about -- you're running for president, a big job -- >> let me finish. you told me i would have the floor t. you told me -- >> i did, but you just suggested that i am perpetuating vitriol, and i asked you to substantiate that. what have i said today that is vitriolic? >> let me finish what i'm saying. >> okay. >> what i said when i announced

a year ago is that we are facing a time in our history, ari, that is more -- and i think you'll agree with this. you are a student of history -- that is more vitriolic, more polarized, more poisonous. and at any time since the american civil war. and it's all being amplified by the social media algorithms. and it's hard to see a way out of that. if somebody doesn't come along and say, i'm not going to participate in that, and even people act crazy on both sides, i'm not going to be part of that craziness. >> but you're not addressing the question i raised, and maybe you will, which is that what we just heard from former president trump and what he does in the racism, in the misogyny, refusing to leave peacefully through january 6th, up through that night praising the people who are convicted seditiousists. people don't see what you seem to be saying, which is a type of equivalence. do you see something different

about that this election? that's what people are asking. >> this is why i say you're feeding the vitriol. you're trying to get me to hate on president trump. >> not hate on. i'm talking about what happened. they stormed the capitol. they tried to overthrow the certification and the results of a lawful election. and donald trump is out here now saying he has, according to his lawyers, license to kill, license to coup, will pardon all those people. you seem to be saying, discussing that as vitriolic. no, it's not. having a clear position on the peaceful transfer of power is a very low bar, very low bar. and the reason why people are asking this is not just because they're trying to distract from your issues, although you're getting time to discuss them. but again you're well familiar with your -- your campaign put out a statement saying basically the people of january 6th who stormed the capitol were stripped of their liberties were, quote, activists. -- called it democratic

misdirection. we are talking about whether there are rules and non-violence enforced in our country or not. and that was a violent storming of the capitol. can you unequivocally condemn that or do you leave this all out there because of whatever your reasons, whether you think that's part of the voting bloc or something else? >> january 6th was a terrible time in our history, a terrible day. people committed terrible crimes. they committed violence against police officers. they broke into the capitol. they stormed the capitol. they committed other crimes and a lot of people are in jail and they should be. i condemn that. but i'm not going to -- i'm not going to campaign based upon drumming up or amplifying people's hatred towards each other. i think we need to start figuring out a way to find common ground. >> sure. but you condemn that and donald trump -- >> you know what -- >> you would be wrong to pardon it. >> ari, you said -- what you do and what you do when you're sitting in this chair every

night, your job is to inflame that. and my job is to -- >> i don't. >> -- de-escalate. >> i don't feel inflamed at all. >> you don't feel, but that's what you're doing. i don't disagree with the things you're saying. i'm just not going to participate in it. i'm not disagreeing with you. >> there is a theme here of what many people see as a false equivalence. we could go through all that -- >> i didn't say there's a moral equivalence. all i said is both of them did things that were wrong for our country. >> to go back to the question -- >> -- attack the constitution. >> to button up the question, because you condemn january 6th and donald trump, who you're running against, you would disagree with his talk of pardoning the convicted seditionists and people who stormed the capitol? >> listen, i would -- in terms of pardoning people, i'm going to use the pardon power. i don't know who i'm going to use it on. i'm an attorney. i'm going to look at every case that's brought before me and make a decision on it. i'm not going -- >> i'm not trying -- >> you're trying to say who i'm

going to pardon and who i'm not going to pardon. i'm not issuing a general pardon to any category of people. >> when you look at his talk, which is doing that. he talks about taking the convicts -- >> you're trying to get me to condemn him again. >> i'm asking you about your views. you're running for president. it's a big job. i'm asking you, would you be open to those kind of pardons or not? >> here's my views. we have the worst inflation in a generation. we're embroiled in a war we should have never got involved with in ukraine. president trump said -- >> the question is about those pardons. would you be -- >> i'm not -- what do you mean? i'm not -- listen. i'm an attorney. >> yeah. >> i was a prosecutor. you were, i think, a legal aide attorney. i was a prosecutor. i would never say in advance, i'm running for political office who i'm going to pardon. >> that's what he's doing and you're running against him. i'm asking you as a journalist where you stand on that. >> i'm not going to do that.

>> so, that will sound to people like you're leaving that door open. you don't need to. do you want to leave that door open? i'm surprised at your answer? >> the door is closed. i'm not answering it until i look at people's cases. >> we've got a lot of questions. we're going to pause and return with more after this this break. with more after this this break. in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. well done, viv. you got the presents, the balloons and the raptor cake. now, how about something to put a smile on your face? aspen dental provides complete, affordable care with dentists and labs in one place plus free exams and x-rays for new patients without insurance... and 20% off treatment plans for everyone. quality care at a price worth celebrating. it's one more way aspen dental is in your corner.

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it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. don't miss out on our fastest speed plans yet! switch to comcast business and get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. call today! and we are back. generations of americans have viewed the kennedys as iconic political dynasty, known for service, for policy, and of course for tragedy after jfk and rfk. many other kennedys have served in government. today robert f. kennedy jr. is running for president as an independent. and we are continuing this, his first interview, on "the beat" right now. and you mentioned that you tragically lost family members to gun violence. >> yeah. >> do you have a view about how

that affected you, affected your world view, perhaps may or may not have affected your view of policy, because it is something that everyone honestly does know about you. it's the tragedy you endured, that you grew up with. i don't know how you want to answer it, if at all. it's a more personal question. >> my father's death and my uncle's death affected how i internalized that or affected that approach. >> how does it affect you? again, only if you care to share, how does it affect you as a person? does it affect your outlook, your world view? you're here now 70 with your whole life and you're running for office. how does it affect you, if you can share? >> you know, i have to think about that. oddly i should have an answer to that because it's something, you know, that i -- you know, i -- it affected me greatly. you know, i -- when i think about my father and my uncle, i think that it wasn't their

deaths so much that affected me but their lives, their approach to life. and i spent a lot of my life not only with them but then reading all the literature on them. i'm probably the only person in my family that's done that and written histories about it and, sort of, dissected their views on various issues. and that's affected me tremendously. in terms of the trauma, i can't -- you know, it's hard for me to say, oh, i was a drug addict for 14 years. and my addiction started right after my dad's death. but in my construction of events, i don't blame my father's death on my addiction. i feel like i was born like that, that i was born with an empty hole inside of me. i was looking for ways to fill it, you know, things outside of me to fill it.

>> do other people in your life feel that way? again, we don't know, but you could imagine a friend or a partner or a doctor saying, if the events occurred right after, they might see the link? >> well, of course. and i have no way of really making that determination. so, you know, i spend a lot of time in self-examination. i've been in recovery for 40 years. i go to meetings every day. and that's a process of constant self-examination. so, you know, my kind of -- i've come down on the side that, you know, trauma clearly affects things about, i'm sure, how i process the world. but i don't -- looking back on that does not help me in terms of, you know, how do i negotiate what i need to do today. and i think when i -- you know, the parts of my life that are most influential in determining

how i behave on a day-to-day basis, how i get out of bed in the morning, make my bed and go about, be kind to people, be judicious, and be the way that i approach the world, i think is much more influenced by the role model that my father gave me, the role model that my uncle gave me, rather than the way they died. i think the answer to your question is, i don't really know how that trauma impacted me. i can't really separate that from many other traumas i've had. we all have. you know, everybody has trauma. but i do know that my uncle and my father's lives, the moral center they had has affected me profoundly. >> understood. and people can only imagine how difficult that might be and how do you make sense of it. again, as a candidate i'm going to ask questions -- >> my mom used to say to us, she

said, everybody takes their licks, you know? and she'd say, listen, we had it very easy compared to a lot of people who lost their father or their uncle. we had a big, loving family. we had the catholic faith, which was very fortifying for us. we had people around us who loved us. we had good guidance. we had access to education, to money, to resources, to great friends. my mother used to say there's people in compton who lose their fathers and never see their fathers, lose their fathers and brothers to violence, and they don't have the resources that you do. so, the extent that i was ever tempted to feel, you know, pity for myself, my mother would abolish that immediately. >> the other burden that someone in your position carries, which is very complicated, would be that because it was the

kennedys, wherever you go -- right now you're choosing to come out and run for office, and you're putting yourself in this position. but for many years, you could -- you couldn't have not put yourself in this position. you could just be living. but everywhere you go, whether you choose it or not, this is something that people know about you and your family, that it lives with you. there's a difficulty to that, to being young and to having this thrust upon you at a level where these were moments that the whole country lived through. >> yeah. but, you know, i experienced that in a different way. i have people come up to me almost every day of my life and say, you know, i remember your dad. your dad inspired me. i remember where i was when he was killed. i don't always like to hear that because it -- you know, it does remind me of -- sometimes i feel restless when people are telling me, i remember exactly where i

was when your father was killed or your uncle was killed. but i know they mean it well. and i know that they love my family. and i know that i feel support. i feel honored that so many people feel motivated to come up to me and say that, you know, my father influenced them in a good way. so, for me, it was never a burden. it was always something that was, i think, advantageous. >> i appreciate that. and i appreciate you being willing to share that with us. if you run this campaign all year and lose, you will have achieved what? and if you run this campaign all year and, against the current understanding of the odds, become president, you will have achieved what? >> yeah, i intend to win, so i'm not going to answer the first question. >> spoken like a politician. >> so, the answer, i think, if i win the presidency everything in this country will change.

i feel america's lost its way. people, even people i love, like liberals who i grew up with and family members, i think they're so frightened of donald trump that they've lost perspective about the values that make us, you know, a great nation, made our party the democratic party, the embodiment of the highest ideals and highest values of our nation. and i have a very clear notion of what this country is supposed to look like. i think we're supposed to be an exemplary nation. the world wants our leadership. they don't want our bullying. they know the difference. >> robert f. kennedy jr., i appreciate you coming on. >> thank you. >> good to talk with you. thanku >> good to talk with you so we p. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) now we're even smarter and ready for what's next.

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i would never say in advance of running for political office who i'm going to pardon -- >> but that's what he's doing and you're running against him, and i'm asking you as a journalist where you stand on that. >> i'm not going to do that. >> so that will sound to people like you're leaving that door open. you don't need to. do you want to leave that door open? i'm surprised at your answer. >> i'm keeping the door closed. i'm not answering it until i look at people's says. >> robert f. kennedy jr. speaking there. that's part of an interview we taped with him previously that we aired for the first time this hour. i'm joined by "the washington monthly's" margaret carlson. welcome, margaret. your thoughts on some of what we

heard. >> i don't know how you kept your vitriol intact, tamped it down. he's a maddening interview, but he's a broken man, so you don't want to press him too hard. he looks vulnerable almost because he's -- you know, he's not answering your questions. he's diluted by a $200,000 poll that only he has seen that has him winning against either candidate. so, he doesn't answer then the question about being a spoiler. and every would-be spoiler thinks they're going to win, not maybe as adamantly as he does. but the way he maneuvered was -- and he didn't maneuver very well. but i came to feel sympathetic for him. and you seemed to as well -- >> go ahead. >> you could have been -- you could have been harder, i think, than you were. but the one place that -- when

you said, you've got him in a corn by saying, do you really want to leave the door open to pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists. you gave him a chance and he didn't take it. but it exposed that he doesn't have an answer. he -- the answer is, he wouldn't pardon them. but he doesn't want to say that because he's twisted his mind thinking he might pardon them. i don't know. did you know where he stood after that? >> i think when you deal with something as clear as that convicted sedition, we're not talking about the potential trump trial or others, we're talking about the proud boys who were convicted of sedition, yes, i think it's legally and factually extreme to say that the door is open to that. i think that itself is something people can assess for themselves. legally it's out there. as for the spoiler issue, people can have their reaction, as you

know, margaret, to politicians and people in public life. everyone can have their emotional reaction. the biden campaign is not ignoring or turning him off. they're trying to figure out how to deal with someone with a kennedy alert who could become a spoiler. here's the exchange for your reaction i want to get. take a look. >> president trump and president biden if the other guy leaves. >> you think it's a big if? you're talking about the incumbent president of the united states. >> i -- under this criteria, president biden is the spoiler because he cannot win. he cannot win if i stay in. he does worse if i leave. >> you're comparing -- but you're comparing -- >> ari, a ri -- >> you're comparing hypothetical polls to a guy who won the presidency. >> margaret, your thought on the way he's dealing with this, which, as we showed, is in contradiction with his long-standing claims advocating for democrats and against people

he's doing now, like nader? >> he didn't have an answer for it except, you know, his polls show him winning against either one of them and against biden. and he didn't come up with a distinction between supporting hillary against trump but not supporting biden against trump. or why he's sympathetic now to trump in a way he wasn't before. and now he has acres of experience and information on trump as president and trump now as a full-time defendant. and he never admits who trump is and why he's made that switch. >> we also have "the new york times" headline here that nicolle and others were covering earlier today, rfk jr. says doctors found a dead worm in his brain. i have cognitive problems, clearly, short-term memory loss, long-term memory loss that affects me.

this article came out after we taped this interview, which is new, which we aired for the first time. but that kind of talk, while difficult, again, you mentioned being empathetic to people's situations. but that kind of talk wouldn't seem to help a candidate politically. >> it seems like a "new york post" headline, dead worm in brain of candidate. it's -- you know, it's -- you don't know what to say to it. you're not having it. how would you have asked that question? it's so -- it's such a bizarre thing. and when i first read it, it was all part of a deposition in which he was trying not to pay any money to his soon-to-be ex-wife. so, he came up with a lot of different things. no money. fibrillation. a worm in the brain. i mean, it's -- it's, like, you know, stranger than fiction.

you -- and i don't know what he'll say to that. i guess he hasn't yet been confronted with that because it's too -- >> as i mentioned the article crossed after we taped this. but it's certainly not -- again, it's not helpful politically and it speaks to, sort of, his -- some of his discourse and how different it is. margaret, we found -- >> it might explain -- >> go ahead. >> it might explain some things, a worm in the brain. >> we almost have a new tradition around here of having you on to be the journalist, the fact checker, on some news worthy interviews. we'll see you again. thank you, margaret carlson. >> thanks, ari. i want to mention for everyone, that full interview with robert f. kennedy is also now online. just go up next, congress, chaos and republican failure. hard right mtg finds she couldn't exactly pull off a gaetz. we have that update next. that ut you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it.

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the sense that's what went down in the house. they lost. the house killing that by tabling it. johnson got help from democrats, though. that's kind of interesting. this is a republican speaker we hear about divided partisanship. so much else going on, this might play as a bigger deal. an overwhelming bipartisan majority saying not that they love speaker johnson but they, well, don't love mtg as much as him or really dislike her. democrats helping republicans keep the status quo. second time in seven months that house republicans have actually tried to oust their own speaker. this is the person they recently picked. this would suggest that speaker johnson is safe from these kinds of challenges right now. not necessarily if a more mainstream person or bipartisan candidate stepped up. mtg on the far right trying to re-do the painful matt gaetz of the house republicans, it turns out even democrats will help them avoid that pain for now. we'll be right back. t pain w we'll be right back. a free footlong at subway. just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo

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thanks for spending time with us on a pretty busy news night and show. as mentioned, you can find the entire full interview with robert f. kennedy now for free on msnbc.com/ari. our youtube play list you'll find that interview. if you have any reason you want to watch it. if not, well, join me here tomorrow, 6:00 p.m. eastern. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. ♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- if ivanka weren