to do they do it, the secret lives of the inside stuffs may 22nd on dw, the 5 months into the war and gaza and deadly chaos around. in a convoy has glaringly highlighted the desperation and climbing death toll among civilians. the college of humanity is something we haven't seen protected by guess this week on complex own is not the find me, former egyptian foreign minister and long time diplomat of what points as egypt have no choice. but to consider opening its border, 2 thousands on to monetary and grounds. have the shocking scenes of suffering, process complex to an inflection point. now this on the welcome to complex own.

thank you. tragic deaths around in a cardboard. and i mean, you know, saved the children just out this past week, saying that we are quote, witnessing a mass killing of children in slow motion because there is no more food left. how do you, how do you balance that with your red lines? it's an absolutely great question. we are in a very difficult situation. we cannot allow products that use to star. we don't want them to be shot at. at the same time, we don't want to be forced into a position where we collaborate, indirectly with these ratings. but by decreasing the best that i've seen it, so what they're doing is provide the as much assistance as we can turn the order. we had dropped also just at about 48 hours ago. and we continue to host negotiations with each varies and the cost of these to try to do with all these issues. but i guess my point is, you know, what point does egypt have no other choice?

morally then to open the border because you know, we know what this is not a crisis of you're making, but does egypt need to do more to help the people on the ground? i think we are doing quite a bit, but yes, i agree with you. there will be a situation where if they're forced across the board, we will have to make very difficult decision. but how we respond to it we. we clearly are not going to keep our students, but that being said, uh it should not be interpreted as meaning. push them across the border and we with that, yes. because pushing it across the board is not only a violation of punish penny and rights. it's also by the way, if i ration of egypt for just like a piece of we know of consequence. yeah. and um, you know, i'd like to ask you a little bit about what is happening right now on the ground at the border because there's been a lot of questions about that. egypt has been building some sort of security perimeter at the border last month. your foreign minister classified it as well. he called maintenance on the border, is an egypt planning and area to house,

palestinians in case of and is really offensive on rasa. in or out. i don't know exactly it, but let me tell you what i do know the area where there is construction was originally area and license buildings. they were taken down and people were most out. the government rebuilt that area and invited the directions to go back to that, that they have not yet gotten back to that period. and it's something that has been going on for over a year. you had the, the guys that break out during the last 5 months. so the pressure also became, uh, what are we about to do if the protestant is, are forced across support. we will have to deal with a very dire you might a charity situation, but we will also have to deal with a situation where we will not in any way directly or indirectly condone is really

action that virus palestinian rights and that suspect. but also that violates the junction is a piece of you and that needs to be clearly understood. yeah, so let me ask you a little bit more about the diplomacy that might be going on behind closed doors right now because and israel's foreign minister has said that they have to and i'm quoting here deal with rafa because they cannot just leave him off. there and that it would coordinate with egypt to address concerns about refugees. what conversations do you think are happening right now between egypt and israel, especially when it comes to, you know, potential incentives, for example. i mean, you know, money and incentives for egypt to take refugees wouldn't hurt what it this is not an issue of money and it said, this is an issue. we are committed to it to states, use it to stay, the power of sending and part of that of the to states is guys and the west back if we were to reduce these numbers there. that's what we very, very gauged. some is

a politicians and the cabinets have opened. he said, yes, we need to move the seniors out of guys that are entered egypt or even into your and we'll fight financing to do so. that's the advocate policy so we can make this look. oh, but we have made it also clear that we will not participate in this process. uh and i can tell you that effects are nice and secure and that's a violation of the patient is taking it back to getting aid and air dropping of aid is picking up. even the united states has joined in there are currently discussions on how else to expand the flow, and you know, it's been reported that president biden spoke last week with president. i'll cc about urgency of negotiations and bringing more 8 into gaza. i mean, as egypt your next door, you're trying to get calm boys in. do you see the potential, if anything, shifting on the ground so that more aid can enter?

yes, i do see if there's a hostage, a partial hostility change versus incarcerated, and a temporary cease fire that can facilitate a going in the least most recent incident that we saw just put 3 days ago. this was a actually you brought in and organized by palestinians and his race. but given that it was a caustic song, is raised themselves, the facts or the, the group of people who are gathered around. uh the do you think that they are so you can have a state, a substantial amount of a going in and they was own in a culture so there's no way to work secure area. so yes, we want, why we always think the negotiations on c spy, it also to change one of the reasons stop getting people killed, but also about for more effective. you might turn it right and just to pick up on

one thing that you said there. i mean the idea is actually said that indeed they did fire, but they didn't actually fire on individuals who were seeking to get a. but again there's, there's 2 sides of the story. so i just want to highlight that that's the perspective that they are bringing in and the official statements. let's take it back to the ceasefire talks because they, they were due at the time of this interview. they were due to kick off in cairo, egypt and guitar have been mediating between israel and a moss. and your foreign minister has said in the past days that he's optimistic about a temporary cease fire being reached before ramadan. what do you think that he sees that might point to optimism for deal? well, again, you have to assemble. just let me tell you what i think he meant he meets up. if you simply listen to all of the international uh, report, everybody under everybody has been telling these rays. and thomas, let's how does these far before remember that they're worried about the situation

on the ground. you may, it's area and political, but they're also worried about it bridging out beyond the borders in the states on the, on, on these baseboards. so there's also the strength of the expansion. uh, that's, that is what i think we're seeing. now again, 2 points, 2 tabs here. one, this is not a full safe spot nor a full hostages 6. this is a partial positive exchange versus those incarcerated and a temporary cease one. so it will be a positive step towards a complete ceasefire. you're not going to get with the addition of the conflict or, and the ability to start rebuilding what has been destroyed unless you get a complex in scratch. but as one of the, you know, the traditional mediators between these parties, um, talk with a little bit about how you think the pressure on those parties might be right now.

because we, we have world leaders speaking out loudly against the scenes of suffering right now . and gaza, even the us is real strongest allies seems frustrated. do you see this as an inflection point in the crisis? do you feel the mood could change the dynamics on the ground again? so it goes up to that question. i think it does, but this is section point from i know we, we start a process of trying to deal with the major situation where substantially and hopefully then the post politics, the policies and the security situation or inflection point will be that it will look to move towards a highly of all the time regional context. i don't mean sol slipped out of his way . he was a domain. you see everything from tension and alexi literally in order to the syrian border stuff. right. what's happening inside guys that problems on our

border as well. this is going to break out of hand, so the inflection point is either we find a way to slow this box down and try to resolve. it's always going to break out beyond control. so you've made the birds there, basically from the temporary cease fire talks now to something a little bit more longer term. and there seems to be a lot of will and diplomatic momentum. we have to say from both arab states and israel's allies, including the us and the u. k. to secure such a long term lasting piece that would indeed include a 2 state solution. you know, you, you've seen over many decades the, all of the previous efforts that have failed is something different. this time yes. the college of getting humanity is something they haven't seen for tactics. was always a horrible incident in inside israel or

a month brought us to new territories utility such a nation of meters by the way, not by the other side, but private room people. so we've seen that, but to see 5 months, 30000 people killed, at least because there are those under the wrong that we don't account for 70 percent of home women and children starting. we have not seen that in a very long, long time. so that's something which, frankly, i come from egypt, we were the 1st to have a piece of people with these ways. and that's almost 50 years ago. 50 years after the 1st place agreement with isn't to say not only a lack of control, you know, a comprehensive piece completely but to see the level of cubic and, and, and, and, and counter buttons is frankly quite shocking. and it really burns and my

god as how have you been part of this process for so long and as, and as you are coming from egypt, i'd like to ask you about the saudi lead group of arab states that includes egypt. jordan katara, the u. a e, which is reportedly now pushing this post floor plan that would include a reformed palestinian authority, govern and gaza and irreversible pass towards the 2 state solution. from the perspective of arab diplomacy. what could be offered to sweeten the deal for israel? because any, you highlighted the trauma of these societies is that the violence blood shed. there is no appetite right now for 2 states solution, israel after october 7th or so that's why i mean, what i let me talk about what i think can be done rather than what's on the table by the hour route. because i don't know actually how far they've gone. ok, i said crisis and concert. we need to say, i'll give you 10 quick points,

intense x, 6 fire hostage exchange doesn't cost the rate that you want a terry support. uh, security arrangements between palestinians is always in goza, including withdrawal of israeli forces. a, a, a declaration to recognize you find a city and state based on 6 months, 67. but as soon as they under occupation by we must say it's it's, it's stopped by the city and state under occupation based on 67 area formation by the error countries of their error. they would summit where they said they would all have relations with as well. if there is an end of, of occupation, i want to put all of that under a security council resolution every one of these points, by the way, a supported by, oh gosh, i create i want to have that adopted by the tasha by the security council in an

affirmative vote, and then we go to the parks because that will also require by the way, elections in as well. elections that aren't quite a city. it's essentially the government may ask the settings. yep. i mean it's, it's, you know, you're presenting here a plan, but i, i also want to ask you how you get that planned on with the mood that is currently on the ground. these really cabinet right now has said that any recognition of a palestinian statehood in the wake of the mos terror attacks on israel, on october 7th, which as we know, killed 1200 people and 250 were taken hostage. they've said, and i'm quoting here, it would give a huge reward to unprecedented terrorism. what's your response to that? we're not dealing with one part of the problem rather than the other. what i didn't hear with is the whole issue, and i'm not actually asking these varies and palestinians accepted at the beginning website because it, us, egypt, russia, china upfront, you k, you name,

we all support it, just a so huge. let's agree to this and update that package and go with it tells you just varies and by the city showing that the okay, you have is these fire, you'll have secure, it will have to will have security. but as soon as we'll have a release from what's happening, you're going to have to establish it, your government, send it to deal with guys and the west bank. so we're dealing with the whole thing as to get it. and slowly, within a 2 year period, we can get there if you go to the, to the, to the address today cuz i know you're probably on your mind. okay. wife cathy, alex, take charge of guys and manage that and provide security. and that's a question which injections have been added as for hundreds of types. it's probably the most logical, you know, responsible question. anybody can think of because we will not be surrogates, varies, but you know, there's that they were preserved. let me just continue. but here's the thing, yeah,

they what they want, but i just need to follow up with you on that because you know and ask you to actually respond to what is real has put forward. they set out this competing plan for postwar garza, it does not include a 2 state solution. it does include overseeing security in the enclave. you've talked about security there. and in fact, netanyahu says that israel should have security control over the philadelphia cord . or we know that's that borders own between garza and egypt. do you see any circumstances you've talked about coming together? do you see any circumstances under which egypt would be willing to accept that the opposite? cuz not because that's what basically me. so what are the alternatives we occupied a security perspective, this is by point. yeah, let me just tell you if you tell me that this 10 point plan or a point of a number of points you want, we'll also put a late show at the city and state down the road. then you can get, you get anything and it will not involve is way the security supervision over guess

the out of state will i? that's what to you. ready to help rebuild not to know what the rate of the bill and we'll train and create mechanisms for better management engaged with the westport. but they're not going to be sorry if it's a visually secure. there's absolutely no way that they would accept that for you more. the reason why say that responsible. if we were to put addiction forces or training is in, we have a piece of human was these right? and these win is enter amendments here. what do we do to them? we end up shooting, but as soon as it is ready, it's not going to happen. you've highlighted all the challenges, but what are all the alternatives that go through this? give me a structure for a plan. and then we can look at ok is a security managed by an arrow international, contingent, orange and national contingent, palestinian contingent with our oversight. the details are, are,

are plausible. and we can look at creative solutions, but not solutions that end up with the facto is very optimization of guys that cannot. but i, i look again, we were the 1st design a piece of human with this. so that is, will want security. we accept that. and we're looking at ways to achieve that, but only based on you can't have security unless you solve the problem. the problem is occupation. and these ladies want more transparency and more effectively security that we can, that we could look at, provided that the principal and the doctor patients that let's, let's move on because um, you know, egypt has been also part of this rethink of politics and palestinians. eric pellet sending areas and part of you know, the plans for potential governance within gauze itself. how do you see the prospects for fragmented palestinian politics to be able to unite after the war? because i mean the palestinian authority president lockwood, a boss, is looking set to stay in his position along with his security chiefs. do you think

palestinians will accept that and that the p a might administer garza is widely unpopular? let me put it this way. the only way to really administrator does that in a way that's the effective or part of sentience. and also the also accepted by these ladies without occupation is to have a policy and published in and you understand whether we liked it or not. how may i have less support before october 7th? now they have more support, not because of what they did, but because it is a reaction to, to what they did that cause without the doubt it loaded the ph. so already the, basically the ability to, excuse me, uh, but we need to rebuild that. it may require new liters. i've not had lost it to

that. all i'm saying is that, yes, you're, you're hitting the point right on the, on, on the head. we need to get published in use to look for a new folder. that's why i said, we need to elections. and we need to just take the got a government. and there's both, what's back and guess there's a big debate, also raging right now, about whether or not to what extent her mazda should be involved in all of that. egypt for its part, has acted as a mediator between our mazda and its foes. israel, in fact, as we've highlighted, it's also worked with him boss in recent years to counter and as long as i can search and see in the sign i. but you know, for you personally, when you look at the situation after the horrors of october, 7th can be really be part of a post war scenario. in the scenario, if it's a post worst scenario, where we continue to have cyprus, a violence, they'll be part. there's no question then be fine, because the symmetrical, even though many countries around the world consider them to be a terrorist organization. the united states a do is realize, so this isn't a,

this is the be careful year. i didn't say a postwar scenario where you have peace. i said if we continue to have a cycle of violence they, they, they are others. other forms of comments will continue to exercise what they pursue as their policy. what i quit 40 forward is i want to rebuild about a senior constituency that is effectively supported and presented to it just a seduce. if parties don't want to accept that, then secondly, they get qualified themselves. they part of the process. if they do, they will have to change. and let's also be civically can do you want, who are we to go shooting with now? the peer or to hit the option to change. so is what it allows you to with now, what was us end up with now? what was it? my question for you is how much. so they are, is it?

my issue is not whether they're, they're not, they are there. my issue is how do i built a, a scenario that allows for addictions for our, at this very piece, including but it seems like a piece. those are the one piece. we will that work again. but frankly, i'm the one and we're being asked to talk to thomas, who's relations with each of we're always very, very care. uh, but we're asked to talk to them now and then we hear, but they're not part of the parents. well. okay, so it was, we talked so then i mean, you know, when you look at all of the scenarios that are possible coming out of this, 1st of all, how do you think the war and gaza ends? and when do you see it ending? uh, do you think you'll see a permanent and size dawslet anytime soon? i don't, i don't. i don't say you will see a short term complete,

and you will probably fine get what hostage agreement temporaries fire and then another. but then you will have outbreaks from the agreement and regression. uh, neither side really is way to make you strategic. it says be got these various or how mass. uh, and that's the, that is what is required. that, that's why at the beginning i said let's put together a package that we outside the region. that's how we, we beyond the parties exit. and then we start talking to the party's, their center, to see if we could sell this. basically i, i, we would, they said to make, today is not for 2 states use, but actually it's the only ones we'll get them out of this process or as a swarm or negotiator. do i think i could go and, and do it tomorrow. of course. now, the state's largest,

you cannot be reached then what i mean. what realistic alternative do you see to a 2 state solution that can provide peace in the region or is there non there, there is not, which is the others alternative is a once the reality, which would be a continuous concept, same person is raised because they almost want national ident give it up completely to the other. furthermore, if you don't allow that equal rights, you will have conflicts with in the one state. so to speak, to usually is extremely difficult. one states and yours is computing your boss as it is at once the reality that's going to have cost not off on a um, we have unfortunately run out of time. we thank you so much for joining us here on conflicts on thank you for your time. thank you. the

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