a mass atrocity or a war crime or genocide, really. ultimately these terms end up becoming used as political tools to that inhibit global pace. thank you so much for the enter your thank you the 5 months into the war and gaza and deadly chaos around in a convoy has glaringly highlighted the desperation and climbing death toll among civilians. the cottage of humanity is something they haven't seen protected by guess this week on complex own is not to find me. former egyptian foreign minister and long time diplomat of what points as egypt have no choice. but to consider opening its border, 2 thousands on to monetary and grounds. have the shocking scenes of suffering, process complet to an inflection point. now the sony welcome to conflicts own.

thank you. tragic deaths around and aid con boy in northern gauze, have highlighted the desperation of civilians for food and the lack of security in the enclave. after everything that you've seen in the past days is it time for egypt to open its border to civilians from gaza. as the top of the board civilians is this would be participating in a premeditated consistent effort by these ladies to decrease the density of palestinians on their own territory. and if something was pleasant they, we would not do because we supported by the city and state side by side with us that we continue to take products. tenants in need of medical supervision or medical help. we take so but a large scale, a number of palestinians with basically we were putting into these really acts. but you know, it just has certainly made that red line quite clear. they will not accept any

force displacement of palestinians, but how do you balance the humanitarian desperation? i mean, you know, saved the children just out this past week, saying that we are quote, witnessing a mass killing of children in slow motion because there is no more food left. how do you, how do you balance that with your red lines? it's an absolutely great question. we are in a very difficult situation. we cannot allow products that use to star. we don't want them to be shot it at the same time. we don't want to be forced into a position where we collaborate in directly with these ratings, but by decreasing that, that's the city. so what they're doing is providing as much assistance as we can turn the order. we had dropped also just at about 48 hours ago. and we continue to host negotiations with each varies and the cost of these to try to do with all these issues. but i guess my point is, you know, what point does egypt have no other choice?

morally then to open the border because you know, we know what this is not a crisis of you're making, but does egypt need to do more to help the people on the ground? i think we are doing quite a bit, but yes, i agree with you. there will be a situation where if they're forced across the board, we will have to make very difficult decision. but how we respond to we. we clearly are not going to care for our students, but that being said, it should not be interpret as meaning. push them across the border and we will that yes, because pushing out across the board is not only a violation of punish penny and rights. it's also by the way, if violation of egypt is 80 percent, we now have consequence. yeah. and um, you know, i'd like to ask you a little bit about what is happening right now on the ground at the border because there has been a lot of questions about that. egypt has been building some sort of security perimeter at the border last month. your foreign minister classified as what he called maintenance on the border. isn't egypt planning an area to house

palestinians in case of and it's really offensive on rafa. n o i was, i don't know exactly it, but let me tell you what i don't know. the area where there is construction was originally area and license buildings. they were taken down and people were to move out. the government rebuilt that area and invited rejections that go back to that, that they have not yet gotten back to that period. and it's something that has been going on for over a year. you had the, the guys that breakout during the last 5 months. so the pressure also became, ah, what are we going to do is to fight a city is our force, of course support. we will have to deal with a very dire you might charity situation, but we will also have to deal with a situation where we will not in any way directly or indirectly condone is really

action that virus by the city and rights. and i suspect, but also that violates the dictionary piece of it. and that needs to be clearly understood as, yeah, so let me ask you a little bit more about the diplomacy that might be going on behind closed doors right now because and israel's foreign minister has said that they have to and i'm quoting here, deal with rafa. because they cannot just leave him off there and that it would coordinate with egypt to address concerns about refugees. what conversations do you think are happening right now between egypt and israel, especially when it comes to, you know, potential incentives, for example. i mean, you know, money and incentives for egypt to take refugees wouldn't hurt what it this is not an issue of money and it said, this is an issue. we are committed to a to states a huge to stay the part of city and part of that of the just states is guys in the west. like if we were to, to reduce the numbers there, that would be very,

very dave, some is a politicians in the cabinets have opened. he said, yes, we need to most palestinians out of guys that are into egypt or even into your and we'll fight financing to do so. that's the of the current policy. so we can make this look. oh, but we have made it also clear that we will not participate in this process. uh, and i can tell you that effects on national security and that's a violation of the patient is taking it back to getting aid and air dropping of aid is picking up. even the united states has joined in there are currently discussions on how else to expand the flow, and you know, it's been reported that president biden spoke last week with president. i'll cc about urgency of negotiations and bringing more 8 into gaza. i mean, as egypt your next door, you're trying to get calm boys in. do you see the potential, if anything, shifting on the ground so that more aid can enter?

yes, i do see if there's a hostage, a partial hostility change versus incarcerated, and a temporary cease fire that can facilitate a going in the least most recent incident that we saw just put 3 days ago. this was a actually you brought in and organized by palestinians and his race. but given that it was a caustic, some is raised themselves. the fact the, the group of people who are gathered around these vehicles, they are so you can't have a state a substantial amount of a going in and a war zone in a culture. so there's no way to work secure area. so yes, we want why we always think the negotiations on ceasefire also to change. one of the reasons stop getting people killed but also about for more effective. you mention it right? and just to pick up on one thing that you said there,

i mean the idea is actually said that indeed they did fire, but they didn't actually fire on individuals who were seeking to get a. but again, there's, there's 2 sides of the story. so i just want to highlight that that's, that's the perspective that they are bringing in and the official statements. let's take it back to the ceasefire talks because they, they were due at the time of this interview. they were due to kick off in cairo, egypt and guitar have been mediating between israel and him. austin and your foreign minister has said in the past days that he's optimistic about a temporary cease fire being reached before ramadan. what do you think that ccs that might point to optimism for deal? well again you have to assemble. let me tell you what i think he meant he meets up . if you simply listen to all of the international uh, report everybody and everybody has been telling these rays and thomas, let's have these 5 before rum about. they're worried about the situation on the

ground. you may, it's area and political, but they're also worried about it breaking out beyond the borders in the states on the, on, on his baseboard. so there's also the strength of expansion. uh that's, that is what i think we're see. now again, 2 points to fabulous here. one, this is not a full safe spot nor a full hostages 6. this is a partial positive exchange versus those incarcerated and a temporary cease one. so it will be a positive step towards a complete ceasefire. you're not going to get with the addition of the conflict or, and the ability to start rebuilding what has been destroyed unless you get a complex. but as one of the, you know, the traditional mediators between these parties, i talk with a little bit about how you think the pressure on those parties might be right now.

because we have world leaders speaking out loudly against the scenes of suffering right now and gaza, even the us is real strongest, allies seems frustrated. do you see this as an inflection point in the crisis? do you feel the mood could change the dynamics on the ground? again say closer to that question, i think it does, but it has a section point from either we, we start a process of trying to deal with the imaginary situation or substantially and hopefully then the post politics, the policies and the security situation, or inflection point will be that it will look to move towards a highly volatile regional context. i don't mean sol slipped out of his way. he was a domain. you see everything from tension and alexi. does it literally in order to the syrian border stuff. right. what's happening inside garza problems on our

border as well. this is going to break out of hand, so the inflection point is either we find a way to slow this box down and try to resolve, it's always going to break out beyond control. so you've made the bridge, they're basically from the temporary cease fire talks now to something a little bit more longer term. and there seems to be a lot of will and diplomatic momentum. we have to say from both arab states and israel's allies, including the us and the u. k. to secure such a long term lasting piece that would indeed include a 2 state solution. you know, you, you've seen over many decades the, all of the previous efforts that have failed is something different. this time. yes. the college of humanity is something we haven't seen for tactics. it was always a horrible incident in on, inside israel or

a month brought us to new territories utilities, destination of meters, by the way, not by the other side, but private room people. so we've seen that. but to see 5 months, 30000 people killed, at least because there's always under the wrong that we don't count for 70 percent of home women and children start. we have not seen that in a very long, long time. so that's something which, frankly, i come for egypt, we were the 1st to have a piece of people with these ladies. and that's almost 50 years ago. 50 years after the 1st base agreement with isn't to say, not only a lack of control, you know, a comprehensive piece completely but to see the level of cubic and, and, and, and, and counter buttons is frankly quite shocking. and it really birds and my

god as how have you been part of this process for so long and as, and as you are coming from egypt, i'd like to ask you about the saudi lead group of arab states that includes egypt. jordan katara, the u. a e, which is reportedly now pushing this post floor plan that would include a reformed palestinian authority, govern and gaza and irreversible pass towards the 2 state solution. from the perspective of arab diplomacy. what could be offered to sweeten the deal for israel? because any, you highlighted the trauma of these societies is that the violence, the blood shed, there is no appetite right now for 2 states solution, israel after october 7th or so that's why i mean, what i let me talk about what i think can be done, rather than what's on the table by the, our group because i don't know actually how far they've gone. ok. i said crisis and concert. we need to say, i'll give you 10 quick points, intense x,

6 fire hostage exchange doesn't cost the rate that you want a terry support uh, security arrangements between palestinians is ways in does that include the withdrawal of israeli forces of a a declaration. so i recognize you find a city and state based on 6.6 or 7. i say is the under occupation by the mustang it's, it's, it's stopped by the city and state under occupation based on 67 every information by the arab countries of their era. they would summit, where they said they were all have relations with as well. if there is an end of, of occupation, i want to put all of that under a security council was using every one of these points by the way, a supported by oh gosh, i create i want to have that adopted by the tasha by the security council in an

affirmative vote, and then we go to the parks because that will also require by the way, elections, it has been elections that aren't part of city. it's essentially the government may ask the settings. yep. i mean it's, it's, you know, you're presenting here a plan, but i, i also want to ask you how you get that planned on with the mood that is currently on the ground. these really cabinet right now has said that any recognition of a palestinian statehood in the wake of the mos terror attacks on israel, on october 7th, which as we know, killed 1200 people and 250 were taken hostage. they've said, and i'm quoting here, it would give a huge reward to unprecedented terrorism. what's your response to that? or we're not dealing with one part of the problem rather than the other. what i didn't hear with is the whole issue, and i'm not actually asking these varies, and palestinians accepted at the beginning. what i'm saying is that us, egypt, russia, china upfront you, okay. you know, we all support it, just

a so huge. let's agree to this adult data package and go with it. so these are varies and by the city showing that the okay, you have is east fire. you will have secure it has, will have security. but as soon as we'll have a release from what's happening, you're going to have to establish in your government, send it to deal with guys and the west bank. so we're dealing with the whole thing is to get it and slowly within a 2 year period, we can get there if you go to the, to the, to the address today, cuz i know you probably have your mind. okay. wife cathy, alex, take charge of guys and manage that and provide security. and that's a question which exemptions i've been at. as for hundreds of times it's probably the most logical, you know, responsible question. anybody can think of because we will not be surrogates, varies, but you know, there's that they were preserved. let me just continue. but here's the thing. yeah

. they what they will, but i just need to follow up with you on that because you know and ask you to actually respond to what israel has put forward. they set out this competing plan for postwar garza, it does not include a 2 state solution. it does include overseeing security in the enclave. you've talked about security there. in fact, netanyahu says that israel should have security control over the philadelphia cord, or we know that's that borders own between garza and egypt. do you see any circumstances you've talked about coming together? do you see any circumstances under which egypt will be willing to accept that the absolutely not. because that's what basically me. so what are the alternatives we occupy the security prospectuses by court? yeah, let me just tell you if you tell me that this 10 point plan or a point of a number of points you want, what ultimately they show at the city and state down the road, then you can get you anything and it will not involved is way the security

supervision over guess the out of state. well, i definitely ready to help rebuild not to know what the rate of the bill and we'll train and create mechanisms for better management engaged with the westport, but they're not going to be so if it's a visually secure is absolutely no way that they would accept that for you more, the reason why say that responsible. if we were to put addiction forces or training is in, we have a piece of human with these weights. and these weight is inter amendments here. what do we do to them? we end up shooting, but as soon as it is ready, it's not going to happen. you've highlighted all the challenges spoken, but what all the alternatives. the alternative is, give me a structure for a plan. and then we can look at, okay, is, is a guarantee managed by an arrow international, contingent, orange and national contingent, palestinian contingent with our oversight. the details are, are,

are plausible. and we can look at creative solutions, but not solutions that end up with the facto is ready optimization of guys that can that. but i, we, i, i look again, we were the 1st design a piece of human with this. so there is a lot of security, we accept that and we're looking at ways to achieve that, but only based on you can't have security unless you solve the problem. the problem is occupation. and these ladies want more transparency and more effectively security that we can, that we could look at, provided that the principal and the doctor patients there. let's, let's move on because um, you know, egypt has been also part of this rethink of politics and palestinians. air palace sending areas and part of you know, the plans for potential governance within gauze itself. how do you see the prospects for fragmented palestinian politics to be able to unite after the war? because i mean, the palestinian authority president. luckily the boss is looking set to stay in his position along with his security chiefs. do you think palestinians will accept that

and that the p a might administer garza is widely unpopular? let me put it this way. the only way to really administrator does that in a way that's the sect is for part of sentience. and also the also accepted by these varies uh without occupation is to have a policy and published in you understand whether we liked it or not. promise had less support before october 7th. now they have more support, not because of what they did, but because it is a reaction to to what they did that cause without the doubt it loaded the p a. is this already the pace credibility, excuse me. uh, but we need to rebuild that. it may require new liters. i've not had lost it to

that. all i'm saying is that, yes, you're, you're heading to the point right on the, on, on the head. we need to get published and use to look for a new for me. that's why i said we need to elections and we need it picked up by the government. and there's both what's back and guess there's a big debate also raging right now about whether or not to what extent him off should be involved in all of that. egypt for its part has acted as a mediator between a moss and its foes. israel. in fact, as we've highlighted, it's also worked with him boss in recent years to counter and his lovick insurgency and the sign i. but you know, for you personally, when you look at the situation after the horrors of october 7th can be really be part of a post war scenario. again, typically the scenario if it's a plus worst scenario, where we continue to have cyprus, a violence, they'll be clark. there's no question that be fine. because the symmetrical, even though many countries around the world consider them to be a terrorist organization. the united states a do israel, and so this isn't a,

this is the be careful year. i didn't say a postwar scenario. we have peace. i said if we continue to have a cycle of violence they, they, they are others. other forms of comments will continue to exercise what they pursue as their policy. what i quit putting forward is i want to rebuild about a senior constituency that is effectively supported and presented to it just a few. if parties don't want to accept that, then suddenly they get qualified to reply to that process. if they do, they will have to change. and let's also be civically can do. you want to read the motion and with now the peer a positive change. so it was as little as you to with now. what was us end up with now? what was it? my question for you is how much. so they are, is it?

my issue is not whether they're, they're not, they are the my issue is how do i build a, a scenario that allows for addictions for our, at this very piece, including part of thing, is there a piece those who don't one piece, we will that work again but frankly, on the one and we're being asked to talk to thomas, who's relations with each of we're always very, very care. but we're asked to talk to them now and then we hear, but they're not part of the parents. well, because we talked so then i mean, you know, when you look at all of the scenarios that are possible coming out of this, 1st of all, how do you think the war and gaza ends? and when do you see it ending? uh, do you think you'll see a permanent and size off like any time soon? i don't, i don't, i don't say you will see a short term complete,

and you will probably fine get what hostage agreement temporaries for and then another. but then you'll have outbreaks from the agreement and regression. neither side really is way to make a strategic decision. we got these varies or mass. uh and that's the, that is what is required. that, that's why at the beginning i said let's put together a package that we outside the region. but we, we, beyond the park is accept. and then we start talking to the party's, their center, to see if we could sell this basically i, i agree with you. they set them up today is not for 2 states use, but actually it's the only ones we'll get them out of this process as a swimmer. goshen do i think i could go and and do it tomorrow. of course not. but and the state's lawson cannot be reached then what i mean. what realistic

alternative do you see to a 2 state solution that can provide peace in the region or is there not? there there is not, which is the others alternate is, is a once the reality which would be a continuous concept. same person is res, because they almost want national identity on a very small piece of land, and neither side will give it up completely to the other. furthermore, if you don't allow that equal rights, you will have conflicts with in the one state. so it toothpaste, it usually is extremely difficult and one states and usually is competing boss as it is. and what's the reality of going to have concept? not off on a um, we have unfortunately run out of time. we thank you so much for joining us here. on conflicts on thank you for your time. thank you. the

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to see that we news line from berlin, the us stem, some pressure on israel not to launch a full scale assault on the rough on. as the city in southern gaza comes under renewed bombardment, defense secretary lloyd austin, tested by ministration, held back a shipment of bombs to israel last week. also coming up more palestinians are on the move. yes. again, this is really force is close in on rafa. the army says is conducting a limited operation to killed the lost fighters and the city on the dw witnesses and assaults on a senior german politicians.